March 25, 2026
Ep 16 - Alister Esam - Angel Investor and Founder of Angel6
In this episode, Alister Esam shares with Philip what really drives successful startup investing, from spotting patterns across hundreds of deals to why traction matters more than ideas. We discuss founder traits, funding trade-offs, and the reality behind 10x returns and failed investments.
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Hi, welcome to the Founders and
funding podcast.
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I'm your host, Philip Smith.
On the podcast, I'll be
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interviewing founders,
investors, startup advisors on
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how to fund the journey of your
startup and some tips and advice
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they have for you along the way.
This podcast is sponsored by
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Perfect Technologies and Laden.
Enjoy the episode.
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Hi Alistair, welcome to the
Founders and Funding podcasts.
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Thank you, Philip.
Glad to be here.
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My pleasure to have you on to
set us off, Alistair.
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Talk to me about your company
and your role.
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So I'm not sure it's really a
company, but I'm a, I'm an
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exited SAS founder.
So I have my business with ball
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packs and we people used to turn
up to board meetings with big
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paperbacks and now they turn up
with iPads.
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And we were the guys that did
the tech around that.
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And I exited that in 2018.
And since then I've, I've sort
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of been investing all sorts of
things.
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I've tried everything on the
investing front, ended up with a
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couple of things that I think
work really, really well.
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One of them is kind of share
trading and the other one is
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startups.
And when I did that, I was quite
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surprised how naive the whole
industry is with regards to
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investing.
And it's a really, it's a really
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interesting area where it's not
you can argue isn't very
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efficient at all from an
investor point of view.
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So my first investment failed,
my next investment suddenly gets
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a 10X.
My third fails, my 4th gets a
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10X.
And I keep going because the 10X
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is making it worthwhile.
And I start to see a pattern
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really amongst these investments
that I'm making.
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And the failures get less and
less and the successors seem to
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come kind of more and more.
And now I'm, I'm kind of like
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reviewing hundreds of start-ups
every year and I'm picking the
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best 6.
And so I recently found this
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thing called Angel 6 where
investors can follow my track
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record, follow me, I will share
the investments at no cost with
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them and they can.
And that just helps helps me
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raise more money for the for the
startups I'm investing in, which
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is which is which which helps
them.
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Fantastic.
Well, that's some really great
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experience.
And I think a lot of investors,
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they probably envy, envy the 10
exports.
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Don't you know, they've had
plenty of losses themselves.
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It's very hard to pick and
choose.
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And what does an average day
look like right now?
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So are they typically start work
till about somewhere between
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10:00 and 11:00?
So if I'm at home, I might walk
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in the dog with my wife.
We'll go for a coffee every
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morning.
I'm kind of, I kind of decided
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I've slipped into this not
working very hard life and and
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the investment suits that.
So we're a lot of holidays.
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We've got a holiday home.
We'll go to a lot race cars.
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And so I have 50% of my time's
leisure.
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But when I'm not doing that, I
mean, really it's, it's talking
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to my start-ups, mentoring the
ones I mentor on the board of a
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few.
But a lot of my time is spent
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like sat on my desk.
And I love doing this, looking
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at whether it's the start-ups or
the share trading, just
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reviewing the investments and
working out where the
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opportunities are and trying to
apply an analytical approach to
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that, which not many people do.
So I mean, that's, that's it
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really.
I'm at my desk or I'm having
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fun.
Yeah, well, at that, to be
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honest, I think it's a it's a
good way to to be.
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But I'm very much pro kind of a
mixed lifestyle.
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I think some people can be too
rich with the 9:00 to 5:00.
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I think have your mornings or
your evenings and your weekends
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or even work weekends or take
Mondays off.
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Just I think once the routine I
think supports the the work.
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I think I'm a big believer in
that.
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And I think you've earned that
right to be able to have the
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freedom as well.
So kudos to you.
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My wife quite well illness, my
wife, my wife might argue with
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this, but I I like to claim that
my calendar, everything in my
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calendar, I can just change it
all and move it all and cancel
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it and postpone it because the
start-ups will wait.
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Investing will wait.
You know, nothing's nothing's
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urgent.
So if we want to have a week
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off, we can.
But she'll always say, oh, hang
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on, what about this?
But.
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I think that's, I think that's
the dream life for myself.
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I think that's the way to have
it and talk to me with some of
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these startups that you've
invested in.
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And why Alistair?
Yeah.
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So I've had some some great
startups over the years and most
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of them are still in.
So some some that are doing
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really, really well and
astonishingly well really, you
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know, 2020 times returns on on
all of them.
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So the, the ones that I'm
investing in at the moment, I
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think it seems to get better and
better because the ones I'm
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investing at the moment, I do
this thing where I score the
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startup a few months after I've
invested when the 1st update
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comes out.
Because when you're investing,
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you get very excited.
It's quite an interesting thing.
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As soon as you sign the cheque,
you go and you, I'm a very
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positive person, but you start
to look at, oh, did I make a
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mistake there?
And there's a few where I've
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gone, oh, oh, you know what?
I'm not sure.
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I think that was, I'm not, and I
don't realise it until the
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cheque goes out the door and you
think, oh, big mistake.
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And, and so the way I've started
to score them, it's really
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interesting.
Is that like a month after the
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update comes out, everything has
calmed down.
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You're now looking at it more
objectively.
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What do I, what do I, what do I
now think about that?
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I give them a confidence score
of 100 and that's getting better
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and better.
I mean, the, the three I've
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invested in most recently,
Health key is a, is a
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marketplace for health services.
There's Habitat Learn, which is
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an accessibility based ad tech
focused ad tech company that is
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hopefully kind of being going to
be driven forward by one of the
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IT phobal IT guerrillas.
And another one is your future,
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which is, is Gen.
Z entry level hiring platform
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with kind of a, an IP related
patterns on on kind of how they
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match or with some IP on how
they match kind of profiles to
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jobs.
We ask to competitive space that
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I've been wary about going into
it because there's loads of that
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stuff.
But these three, what excites me
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about them is they've come from
typically in essence of them has
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come from nowhere to something
very, very successful in a very
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short period of time.
They're not asking ridiculous
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valuations because they, they
kind of short track record
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because they've come from
nowhere and the growth rate is
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phenomenal.
And they're doing that growth
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typically without any sales
team.
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You know, this is they're just
about to, to raise to, to, to,
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to kind of accelerate.
So I mean, they, they, they get,
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they, they get really excited,
they're going to be really
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excited.
Fantastic.
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Well, it's, it's interesting.
I think there was a bit of I've
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always felt when you invested in
a startup, when you when you
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first learn about it, when you
know, it's that kind of new
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opportunity.
It's a bit like when you maybe
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you're the car dealership and
you know that he says someone
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else wants to buy the car to be
gone tomorrow.
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There's always a new fear that
window of opportunity will
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disappear, you know, But then
when you take a breath and you
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get home and you think,
actually, if I want to drive
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this scene and like, what's the
what's the mileage of the
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problems with it?
But I think there's some
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similarities there.
And then what is the best way to
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find a startup journey in your
opinion?
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Have you found, you know that
they're better if they they
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bootstrap or if they invest or
get loans or is there certain
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types of investments or or ways
to fund it that you appeal to
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you more?
But I mean, if I, if I, if I
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look at it from Michael, is he
as an investor?
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I like the ambitious ones that
are looking to raise, raise,
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raise, raise, raise, get really
big and grow.
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That's what I like because I
know that's where the money is
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as an investor, it's exciting
and you get amazing returns and
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you, you know, you that way
you're working towards an exit.
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I think it's interesting because
I met one of my, I met one of my
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investments the other day.
That's one of doing, you know, I
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think they're, they're kind of
onto series B now and they are
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the guy said to me, you know, do
you think because it's a
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question as to as a business
strategy, he was asking from a
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business strategy point of view,
do you think we should, you
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know, we should grow like like
massively take on money, just go
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for it?
Or do you think we should sort
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of remain a luxury product,
scale down and, you know, study
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off and get, get to profit and,
and all this sort of stuff?
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And, you know, from my point of
view, if, if you're just looking
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financially, the answer was
grow.
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But for, for the, for the actual
founders point of view, it, it
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depends what you want, because
taking on that money is risky.
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You know, quite often you, I've
had some horror stories where
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you know, the, the, the startup
has done OK, but the CEO got
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fired for underperformance.
And this is the founder of their
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business getting fired from
their own business.
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And, and you know, because
they've signed a deal with the
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VCs that that that allows that
to happen.
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And, and you know, they're
ending up with very, very little
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as a result because they decided
to go for it.
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So it's really, I think it's
really about what your appetite
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for risk is and what your, what
you know, what lifestyle you,
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you want as a founder.
So, so I think it's a difficult
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1, you know, and I think you
have to look at it from that
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personal viewpoint.
Yeah, I think that makes a lot
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of sense.
But look, it's only, it's only
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right that of course when you're
investing into a start up that
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you want to see that hunger for
them to to want to invest and to
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get investment and grow more.
But there is certainly some
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trade-offs and and it doesn't
work out every time.
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You know, it's kind of there's a
bit of a kind of if you look at
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just LinkedIn post, you might
think that everything was rosy
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all the time.
What kind of reality is, is
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certainly not that and to to
look at the founders themselves
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a bit, is there, is there
certain skills that you think
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Finer should possess or that
skills that they might have that
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would attract you to invest more
Alistair?
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It's, it's, I mean, this is kind
of, this is the crux of, I
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suppose my thesis and why I
think it works, which is that
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most angels look at the
investment and they guess 2
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questions.
They go, is the idea good?
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I think they do anyway, is the
idea good?
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So is it a good idea?
Does that work right?
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I, I'm, I'm, I'm crap at
deciding if it's these things
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are a good idea, right?
I think something's a good idea
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and it flops.
And then I think something else
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is stupid and it does amazingly
well.
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I think it's really, really a
skill that I don't know how many
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people have to judge that.
And the second is all the
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question you're asking is, you
know, do you look at the fan?
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Do you think they can do it?
And I just think they're
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terrible, terrible in the
generality.
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I think they're terrible ways to
assess.
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You know, I've got somewhere I
think and it doesn't come across
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as impressive, but I'm watching
the nail it day in, day out.
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And you know, it could be that
they've got a great sales team.
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Could be they've got something
else about them.
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And I just don't think that what
we, what we expect a founder to
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be is, is necessarily always the
right thing that they need to
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be.
So having said that, there are a
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few pass gates that I apply to,
to the founders.
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And one is these, these are
obvious really, but I need to
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trust them.
So there's an element of trust I
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have to build up.
So, you know, always, every,
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every investment.
I mean, I'm even for a coffee, I
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have a chat with them.
They need to be willing to
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listen.
We, you know, we obviously comes
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through on the first call
whether they are or not, you
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know, because if they're not
willing to listen to, to, to me
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and my suggestions, they're not
going to listen to anybody.
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And that's just that's the
recipe for disaster.
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And then there's there's a
combination of investors that I
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really think works really well.
And it's when you have two
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people found US1 is the kind of
out there salesperson that you
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know, can go and get business.
So if I look at that's, it's
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interesting when you, when I
could learn about your future,
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which is a recruitment business,
they obviously got recruiters
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working for them.
Recruiters are just sales mad
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people, all of them and say you
know that, you know that
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person's going to go out and get
the business.
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The second side of it is is the
dev side.
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And when it's a tech, because
everything I do is tech.
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And there was something Bill
Gates said, I think he said
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something along the lines of the
a great developer is 1010
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thousand.
I think you said times more
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effective than a good developer
because they're a media
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developer, because they get the
right architecture, they get the
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right structure, they go faster,
they're just they can just kind
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of handle more in their head.
And and so you know, you, you
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see that not necessarily when
you meet the developer, you see
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it in what they've built in what
in the time scale that they've
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built it.
And if you put those two things
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together, they're the two things
that I think that, you know, can
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swing it for me a little bit.
But I I what I really need to
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see is metrics on the.
Yeah.
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Well, the metrics are the the
biggest insight of all really.
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But that's an interesting point
you made there because I think,
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yeah, like I see a lot of
investors, they look for maybe,
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you know, maybe one sales guy,
one kind of tech product guy.
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But you know, you raised a good
point there that there's there's
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different ways that they can
they can be ineffective.
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Some finders might love with the
laptop which was working with
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terrible public speaking or vice
versa.
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But they can also implement,
they can have a augmented team
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of employees or freelancers they
got to help fix something.
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So I think there's it's
certainly there's room for all
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kinds of founders to succeed.
And how can companies themselves
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attract investors more
effectively?
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For me, everything's about the
metrics.
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So and when I tried it, like I
say, I looked through, do I
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think this is a good idea?
Because if someone's buying it,
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I don't do anything pre revenue.
I want to see, I want to see
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traction.
So if someone's buying it, who
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am I to say whether it's a good
idea or not?
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They they're the, they're the
customers and they obviously
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think it's a good idea.
So I need traction, I need a a
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big growth rate.
I want to see that growth rate
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and, and a scalable growth.
So the ones I'd like that I just
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mentioned, you know, they're,
they're doing that growth rate
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on, on the founder, doing so on
founder LED sales.
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So, you know, when that changes,
they should grow a lot faster.
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I want to see a market size from
a bottom up that, you know, not,
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not a top down.
This is £100 billion market.
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I want to see, you know, how
many clients can, how many
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clients can you sell this to?
How many clients are you likely
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to sell this to?
What are they going to pay?
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And you know, and does it
translate overseas and and a
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00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:51,040
reasonable evaluation.
But I know, so that's what I
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want to see.
But I do think that I do think
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that that's not necessarily
that's might might not be the
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00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:01,400
exact answer to your question
because, you know, other people
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want to see other things.
And I think if you do do an
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exciting picture, you put a
vision forward and, and you've
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got the idea at Angel level and
even at VC level, at Angel
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level, they people like that
good idea thing.
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00:14:13,560 --> 00:14:16,000
I think you will get investment.
I see all the time and I'm
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00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:19,440
amazed sometimes they're pre
revenue things with with £7
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00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,560
million valuations that are just
easily getting the money because
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00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:25,400
the people like the idea.
And then I think even at even at
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VC level, I think what people
like at BC level is the is, is a
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00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:33,280
believe, they're to believe that
there is a massive market
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opportunity because they want
the big, they want the big
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00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:39,280
prizes.
Sometimes I don't think that's
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00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:41,800
necessarily sometimes I think
that where there's a, where
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there's a huge market, there's a
lot of competition and, and in
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00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:47,000
a, and so there will be other
players.
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00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:50,760
And then so big is good, but
huge isn't sort of 10 times
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00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:53,560
better necessarily.
But I think VCs do like that.
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Yeah, I think that's a very good
insight.
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00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:58,960
And if you'd one key piece of
advice to share and fund in the
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00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:09,240
startup, what would it be?
In funding a startup, I think
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00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:13,040
it's like, give you an example.
I mean, I had one of my own
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00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,520
startups come back to me and
it's one, it's one of the ones
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00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:17,880
that I've got to be careful what
I say is not going to give the
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00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:20,000
name away, but it's one of the
ones that I probably, I'd
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00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,480
probably after investing,
thought was that such a good
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00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:24,720
idea?
And I, I think they will make
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00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:25,640
it.
And I think they could be
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00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:30,400
massive, but they, they are
struggling a little bit and they
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00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:34,560
have got their, their, they came
to me with a, a new pitch deck
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00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:36,440
saying we're raising again
because we, you know, we need to
316
00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:39,880
raise and we're raising at the
same valuation as as last time.
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00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:43,040
And, and here's the story and
they showed me the story and it
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00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:46,840
was just a fairy story.
It was basically if we, if we
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00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:50,400
sell five times as much as we
have been selling, we'll be
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00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:53,320
fine.
And it's going well.
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00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:55,720
Well, I don't know where you're
getting that from because how,
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00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:57,480
how's that, how, how are you
going to do that?
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00:15:57,480 --> 00:15:59,520
You're not explaining it.
It's just like you've literally,
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00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:02,600
you've literally just put the
percentage growth figure in that
325
00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:07,040
gets you to, gets you to
profitability and to and to have
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00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:09,640
long enough runway.
And so I think that, you know,
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00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:13,040
you, you, I, I think that and if
I look at that and that problem
328
00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:16,520
was that they were kind of
trying to do that in isolation.
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00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:18,400
And so I went back and I sat
down with them and they said,
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00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:20,400
look, let's look at this again.
And they, they had ways to
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00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:22,160
monetize what they were doing
that they weren't doing.
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00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:24,160
And, and that's what they needed
to do.
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00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:25,920
And that's the only way out of
where they've got to.
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00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:27,760
And they're, they're doing that
now.
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00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:30,920
But you know, they were, they
just put their head in the sand
336
00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:32,640
and they weren't really facing
the brutal truth.
337
00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:37,800
And so I think, you know, I
think before you go to market
338
00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:41,200
making claims that, you know, be
honest if you're not going to,
339
00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:43,520
if it's not going to work,
don't, don't go to market.
340
00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:45,320
Just work out how, how you can
change it.
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00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:48,840
So it does work because there's,
there's always a way to, there's
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00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:52,240
always a way to kind of monetize
and, and, and revamp and pivot
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00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:54,840
to make it work.
And sometimes they, they just
344
00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:56,560
try to get more funding for what
they're doing.
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00:16:57,280 --> 00:16:59,840
So, yeah, yeah.
I think that's kind of great
346
00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:01,920
advice to finish on.
I think a lot of founders,
347
00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:03,880
definitely a bit of a reality
check because there's certainly
348
00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:06,760
ways they can get there, but
often they're just strong, the
349
00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:09,640
upward graph without too many
ways to get there.
350
00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:12,720
And Alexa, thanks so much for
going to the podcast.
351
00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:14,319
That was a really great
conversation.
352
00:17:14,319 --> 00:17:16,760
You should a lot of really
viable interesting for both
353
00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:19,000
founders and investors, which is
unique.
354
00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:20,720
So thank you for your time.
Thank you.
355
00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:21,400
Good luck.
Thanks for me.
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00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:23,440
OK, best of.
Luck.
357
00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,599
Thanks.
Hi, thanks for listening to this
358
00:17:26,599 --> 00:17:29,480
weeks episode of the Founders
and Funding podcast.
359
00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,160
If you'd like to be a guest or
have a guest suggestion, please
360
00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:33,960
get in touch.
Thank you.
00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:03,480
Hi, welcome to the Founders and
funding podcast.
2
00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:06,080
I'm your host, Philip Smith.
On the podcast, I'll be
3
00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:09,840
interviewing founders,
investors, startup advisors on
4
00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:13,520
how to fund the journey of your
startup and some tips and advice
5
00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:17,120
they have for you along the way.
This podcast is sponsored by
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00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:20,640
Perfect Technologies and Laden.
Enjoy the episode.
7
00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:26,120
Hi Alistair, welcome to the
Founders and Funding podcasts.
8
00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:27,800
Thank you, Philip.
Glad to be here.
9
00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:31,320
My pleasure to have you on to
set us off, Alistair.
10
00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:33,480
Talk to me about your company
and your role.
11
00:00:34,480 --> 00:00:37,680
So I'm not sure it's really a
company, but I'm a, I'm an
12
00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:41,760
exited SAS founder.
So I have my business with ball
13
00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:45,680
packs and we people used to turn
up to board meetings with big
14
00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:47,960
paperbacks and now they turn up
with iPads.
15
00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:50,600
And we were the guys that did
the tech around that.
16
00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:55,720
And I exited that in 2018.
And since then I've, I've sort
17
00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:57,080
of been investing all sorts of
things.
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00:00:57,080 --> 00:00:59,680
I've tried everything on the
investing front, ended up with a
19
00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:01,960
couple of things that I think
work really, really well.
20
00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:06,000
One of them is kind of share
trading and the other one is
21
00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:09,120
startups.
And when I did that, I was quite
22
00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:11,840
surprised how naive the whole
industry is with regards to
23
00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:15,200
investing.
And it's a really, it's a really
24
00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:18,680
interesting area where it's not
you can argue isn't very
25
00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:21,040
efficient at all from an
investor point of view.
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00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:25,960
So my first investment failed,
my next investment suddenly gets
27
00:01:25,960 --> 00:01:28,920
a 10X.
My third fails, my 4th gets a
28
00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:32,160
10X.
And I keep going because the 10X
29
00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:35,680
is making it worthwhile.
And I start to see a pattern
30
00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:37,360
really amongst these investments
that I'm making.
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00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:40,720
And the failures get less and
less and the successors seem to
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00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:44,440
come kind of more and more.
And now I'm, I'm kind of like
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00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:48,360
reviewing hundreds of start-ups
every year and I'm picking the
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00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:49,840
best 6.
And so I recently found this
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00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:54,360
thing called Angel 6 where
investors can follow my track
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00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:57,720
record, follow me, I will share
the investments at no cost with
37
00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:00,640
them and they can.
And that just helps helps me
38
00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:03,400
raise more money for the for the
startups I'm investing in, which
39
00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:04,760
is which is which which helps
them.
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00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:06,960
Fantastic.
Well, that's some really great
41
00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:09,759
experience.
And I think a lot of investors,
42
00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:12,640
they probably envy, envy the 10
exports.
43
00:02:12,640 --> 00:02:15,800
Don't you know, they've had
plenty of losses themselves.
44
00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:17,880
It's very hard to pick and
choose.
45
00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:22,120
And what does an average day
look like right now?
46
00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:26,800
So are they typically start work
till about somewhere between
47
00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:29,120
10:00 and 11:00?
So if I'm at home, I might walk
48
00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:30,720
in the dog with my wife.
We'll go for a coffee every
49
00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:33,160
morning.
I'm kind of, I kind of decided
50
00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,480
I've slipped into this not
working very hard life and and
51
00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:39,040
the investment suits that.
So we're a lot of holidays.
52
00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:41,800
We've got a holiday home.
We'll go to a lot race cars.
53
00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:43,720
And so I have 50% of my time's
leisure.
54
00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:47,320
But when I'm not doing that, I
mean, really it's, it's talking
55
00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:51,320
to my start-ups, mentoring the
ones I mentor on the board of a
56
00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:53,880
few.
But a lot of my time is spent
57
00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:57,360
like sat on my desk.
And I love doing this, looking
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00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:00,360
at whether it's the start-ups or
the share trading, just
59
00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:02,720
reviewing the investments and
working out where the
60
00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:06,920
opportunities are and trying to
apply an analytical approach to
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00:03:06,920 --> 00:03:10,200
that, which not many people do.
So I mean, that's, that's it
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00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:11,680
really.
I'm at my desk or I'm having
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00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:14,120
fun.
Yeah, well, at that, to be
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00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:16,440
honest, I think it's a it's a
good way to to be.
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00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:21,720
But I'm very much pro kind of a
mixed lifestyle.
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00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:23,880
I think some people can be too
rich with the 9:00 to 5:00.
67
00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:27,360
I think have your mornings or
your evenings and your weekends
68
00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:29,680
or even work weekends or take
Mondays off.
69
00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:33,120
Just I think once the routine I
think supports the the work.
70
00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:34,640
I think I'm a big believer in
that.
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00:03:34,640 --> 00:03:37,280
And I think you've earned that
right to be able to have the
72
00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:39,280
freedom as well.
So kudos to you.
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00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:43,280
My wife quite well illness, my
wife, my wife might argue with
74
00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:46,800
this, but I I like to claim that
my calendar, everything in my
75
00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:50,640
calendar, I can just change it
all and move it all and cancel
76
00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:52,480
it and postpone it because the
start-ups will wait.
77
00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:54,880
Investing will wait.
You know, nothing's nothing's
78
00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:56,520
urgent.
So if we want to have a week
79
00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:58,600
off, we can.
But she'll always say, oh, hang
80
00:03:58,600 --> 00:03:59,880
on, what about this?
But.
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00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:04,800
I think that's, I think that's
the dream life for myself.
82
00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:08,000
I think that's the way to have
it and talk to me with some of
83
00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:09,520
these startups that you've
invested in.
84
00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:11,640
And why Alistair?
Yeah.
85
00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:15,280
So I've had some some great
startups over the years and most
86
00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:19,079
of them are still in.
So some some that are doing
87
00:04:19,079 --> 00:04:22,840
really, really well and
astonishingly well really, you
88
00:04:22,840 --> 00:04:25,560
know, 2020 times returns on on
all of them.
89
00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:30,080
So the, the ones that I'm
investing in at the moment, I
90
00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:32,360
think it seems to get better and
better because the ones I'm
91
00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:35,280
investing at the moment, I do
this thing where I score the
92
00:04:35,280 --> 00:04:38,880
startup a few months after I've
invested when the 1st update
93
00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:40,240
comes out.
Because when you're investing,
94
00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:42,440
you get very excited.
It's quite an interesting thing.
95
00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:46,560
As soon as you sign the cheque,
you go and you, I'm a very
96
00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:49,280
positive person, but you start
to look at, oh, did I make a
97
00:04:49,280 --> 00:04:50,600
mistake there?
And there's a few where I've
98
00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,480
gone, oh, oh, you know what?
I'm not sure.
99
00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:55,600
I think that was, I'm not, and I
don't realise it until the
100
00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:58,520
cheque goes out the door and you
think, oh, big mistake.
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00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:01,920
And, and so the way I've started
to score them, it's really
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00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:04,240
interesting.
Is that like a month after the
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00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:06,080
update comes out, everything has
calmed down.
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00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:07,720
You're now looking at it more
objectively.
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00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,520
What do I, what do I, what do I
now think about that?
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00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:15,200
I give them a confidence score
of 100 and that's getting better
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00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:17,520
and better.
I mean, the, the three I've
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00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:20,360
invested in most recently,
Health key is a, is a
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marketplace for health services.
There's Habitat Learn, which is
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00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:28,800
an accessibility based ad tech
focused ad tech company that is
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00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:31,880
hopefully kind of being going to
be driven forward by one of the
112
00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:36,560
IT phobal IT guerrillas.
And another one is your future,
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00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:40,120
which is, is Gen.
Z entry level hiring platform
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00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:44,760
with kind of a, an IP related
patterns on on kind of how they
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00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:48,720
match or with some IP on how
they match kind of profiles to
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00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:51,640
jobs.
We ask to competitive space that
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00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:54,400
I've been wary about going into
it because there's loads of that
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00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:57,840
stuff.
But these three, what excites me
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00:05:57,840 --> 00:06:02,000
about them is they've come from
typically in essence of them has
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00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:05,160
come from nowhere to something
very, very successful in a very
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00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:07,800
short period of time.
They're not asking ridiculous
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00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:10,680
valuations because they, they
kind of short track record
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00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:13,600
because they've come from
nowhere and the growth rate is
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00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:15,520
phenomenal.
And they're doing that growth
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00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:17,440
typically without any sales
team.
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00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:20,400
You know, this is they're just
about to, to raise to, to, to,
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00:06:20,840 --> 00:06:23,440
to kind of accelerate.
So I mean, they, they, they get,
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00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:25,760
they, they get really excited,
they're going to be really
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00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:27,920
excited.
Fantastic.
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00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:31,480
Well, it's, it's interesting.
I think there was a bit of I've
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00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:33,600
always felt when you invested in
a startup, when you when you
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00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:35,320
first learn about it, when you
know, it's that kind of new
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00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:38,840
opportunity.
It's a bit like when you maybe
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00:06:38,840 --> 00:06:41,360
you're the car dealership and
you know that he says someone
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00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:43,160
else wants to buy the car to be
gone tomorrow.
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00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:45,160
There's always a new fear that
window of opportunity will
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00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:47,680
disappear, you know, But then
when you take a breath and you
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00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:49,680
get home and you think,
actually, if I want to drive
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00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:51,720
this scene and like, what's the
what's the mileage of the
140
00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:53,800
problems with it?
But I think there's some
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00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,320
similarities there.
And then what is the best way to
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00:06:57,320 --> 00:06:58,800
find a startup journey in your
opinion?
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00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:01,520
Have you found, you know that
they're better if they they
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00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:05,320
bootstrap or if they invest or
get loans or is there certain
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00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:09,520
types of investments or or ways
to fund it that you appeal to
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00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:12,560
you more?
But I mean, if I, if I, if I
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00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:14,400
look at it from Michael, is he
as an investor?
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00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:17,400
I like the ambitious ones that
are looking to raise, raise,
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00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:19,600
raise, raise, raise, get really
big and grow.
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00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:22,160
That's what I like because I
know that's where the money is
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00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:25,920
as an investor, it's exciting
and you get amazing returns and
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00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:28,360
you, you know, you that way
you're working towards an exit.
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00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:31,400
I think it's interesting because
I met one of my, I met one of my
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00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:34,360
investments the other day.
That's one of doing, you know, I
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00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:38,680
think they're, they're kind of
onto series B now and they are
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00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:42,120
the guy said to me, you know, do
you think because it's a
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00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:45,400
question as to as a business
strategy, he was asking from a
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00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:48,120
business strategy point of view,
do you think we should, you
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00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:52,200
know, we should grow like like
massively take on money, just go
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00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:54,000
for it?
Or do you think we should sort
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of remain a luxury product,
scale down and, you know, study
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00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:02,160
off and get, get to profit and,
and all this sort of stuff?
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00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:05,480
And, you know, from my point of
view, if, if you're just looking
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00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:06,880
financially, the answer was
grow.
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00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,640
But for, for the, for the actual
founders point of view, it, it
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00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:13,720
depends what you want, because
taking on that money is risky.
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00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:16,880
You know, quite often you, I've
had some horror stories where
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00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:20,200
you know, the, the, the startup
has done OK, but the CEO got
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00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:23,160
fired for underperformance.
And this is the founder of their
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00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:25,000
business getting fired from
their own business.
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00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:28,200
And, and you know, because
they've signed a deal with the
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VCs that that that allows that
to happen.
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And, and you know, they're
ending up with very, very little
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as a result because they decided
to go for it.
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00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:39,919
So it's really, I think it's
really about what your appetite
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for risk is and what your, what
you know, what lifestyle you,
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you want as a founder.
So, so I think it's a difficult
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1, you know, and I think you
have to look at it from that
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00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:51,840
personal viewpoint.
Yeah, I think that makes a lot
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of sense.
But look, it's only, it's only
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right that of course when you're
investing into a start up that
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00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:00,160
you want to see that hunger for
them to to want to invest and to
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00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:03,920
get investment and grow more.
But there is certainly some
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trade-offs and and it doesn't
work out every time.
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You know, it's kind of there's a
bit of a kind of if you look at
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00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:11,440
just LinkedIn post, you might
think that everything was rosy
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all the time.
What kind of reality is, is
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00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:17,200
certainly not that and to to
look at the founders themselves
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00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:20,360
a bit, is there, is there
certain skills that you think
190
00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:22,640
Finer should possess or that
skills that they might have that
191
00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:25,240
would attract you to invest more
Alistair?
192
00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:30,520
It's, it's, I mean, this is kind
of, this is the crux of, I
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suppose my thesis and why I
think it works, which is that
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most angels look at the
investment and they guess 2
195
00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:39,720
questions.
They go, is the idea good?
196
00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:41,880
I think they do anyway, is the
idea good?
197
00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:43,600
So is it a good idea?
Does that work right?
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00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:47,600
I, I'm, I'm, I'm crap at
deciding if it's these things
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00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:49,880
are a good idea, right?
I think something's a good idea
200
00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:51,560
and it flops.
And then I think something else
201
00:09:51,560 --> 00:09:52,840
is stupid and it does amazingly
well.
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00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:56,000
I think it's really, really a
skill that I don't know how many
203
00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:58,440
people have to judge that.
And the second is all the
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00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:00,320
question you're asking is, you
know, do you look at the fan?
205
00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:02,760
Do you think they can do it?
And I just think they're
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terrible, terrible in the
generality.
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00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:06,320
I think they're terrible ways to
assess.
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00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:08,840
You know, I've got somewhere I
think and it doesn't come across
209
00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:11,880
as impressive, but I'm watching
the nail it day in, day out.
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00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:14,280
And you know, it could be that
they've got a great sales team.
211
00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:16,640
Could be they've got something
else about them.
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00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:20,720
And I just don't think that what
we, what we expect a founder to
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be is, is necessarily always the
right thing that they need to
214
00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:29,840
be.
So having said that, there are a
215
00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:32,400
few pass gates that I apply to,
to the founders.
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00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:36,760
And one is these, these are
obvious really, but I need to
217
00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:39,360
trust them.
So there's an element of trust I
218
00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:41,520
have to build up.
So, you know, always, every,
219
00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:43,600
every investment.
I mean, I'm even for a coffee, I
220
00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:47,120
have a chat with them.
They need to be willing to
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listen.
We, you know, we obviously comes
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through on the first call
whether they are or not, you
223
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know, because if they're not
willing to listen to, to, to me
224
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and my suggestions, they're not
going to listen to anybody.
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00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:00,520
And that's just that's the
recipe for disaster.
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00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:03,440
And then there's there's a
combination of investors that I
227
00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:07,120
really think works really well.
And it's when you have two
228
00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:13,000
people found US1 is the kind of
out there salesperson that you
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00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:17,120
know, can go and get business.
So if I look at that's, it's
230
00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:19,240
interesting when you, when I
could learn about your future,
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which is a recruitment business,
they obviously got recruiters
232
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working for them.
Recruiters are just sales mad
233
00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:26,720
people, all of them and say you
know that, you know that
234
00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:28,200
person's going to go out and get
the business.
235
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The second side of it is is the
dev side.
236
00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:34,520
And when it's a tech, because
everything I do is tech.
237
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And there was something Bill
Gates said, I think he said
238
00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:42,920
something along the lines of the
a great developer is 1010
239
00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:44,360
thousand.
I think you said times more
240
00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:46,800
effective than a good developer
because they're a media
241
00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:49,000
developer, because they get the
right architecture, they get the
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right structure, they go faster,
they're just they can just kind
243
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of handle more in their head.
And and so you know, you, you
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00:11:56,560 --> 00:11:59,920
see that not necessarily when
you meet the developer, you see
245
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it in what they've built in what
in the time scale that they've
246
00:12:02,560 --> 00:12:04,440
built it.
And if you put those two things
247
00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:07,880
together, they're the two things
that I think that, you know, can
248
00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:10,480
swing it for me a little bit.
But I I what I really need to
249
00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:14,000
see is metrics on the.
Yeah.
250
00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:17,520
Well, the metrics are the the
biggest insight of all really.
251
00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:20,400
But that's an interesting point
you made there because I think,
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yeah, like I see a lot of
investors, they look for maybe,
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you know, maybe one sales guy,
one kind of tech product guy.
254
00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:29,960
But you know, you raised a good
point there that there's there's
255
00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:32,600
different ways that they can
they can be ineffective.
256
00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:34,880
Some finders might love with the
laptop which was working with
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terrible public speaking or vice
versa.
258
00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:40,360
But they can also implement,
they can have a augmented team
259
00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:43,240
of employees or freelancers they
got to help fix something.
260
00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:45,680
So I think there's it's
certainly there's room for all
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kinds of founders to succeed.
And how can companies themselves
262
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attract investors more
effectively?
263
00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:55,600
For me, everything's about the
metrics.
264
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So and when I tried it, like I
say, I looked through, do I
265
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think this is a good idea?
Because if someone's buying it,
266
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I don't do anything pre revenue.
I want to see, I want to see
267
00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:04,400
traction.
So if someone's buying it, who
268
00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:05,720
am I to say whether it's a good
idea or not?
269
00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:07,880
They they're the, they're the
customers and they obviously
270
00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:12,160
think it's a good idea.
So I need traction, I need a a
271
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big growth rate.
I want to see that growth rate
272
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and, and a scalable growth.
So the ones I'd like that I just
273
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mentioned, you know, they're,
they're doing that growth rate
274
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on, on the founder, doing so on
founder LED sales.
275
00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:26,280
So, you know, when that changes,
they should grow a lot faster.
276
00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:32,360
I want to see a market size from
a bottom up that, you know, not,
277
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not a top down.
This is £100 billion market.
278
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I want to see, you know, how
many clients can, how many
279
00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:41,400
clients can you sell this to?
How many clients are you likely
280
00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:43,360
to sell this to?
What are they going to pay?
281
00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:47,200
And you know, and does it
translate overseas and and a
282
00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:51,040
reasonable evaluation.
But I know, so that's what I
283
00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:55,280
want to see.
But I do think that I do think
284
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that that's not necessarily
that's might might not be the
285
00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:01,400
exact answer to your question
because, you know, other people
286
00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:03,680
want to see other things.
And I think if you do do an
287
00:14:03,680 --> 00:14:06,800
exciting picture, you put a
vision forward and, and you've
288
00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:11,120
got the idea at Angel level and
even at VC level, at Angel
289
00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:13,560
level, they people like that
good idea thing.
290
00:14:13,560 --> 00:14:16,000
I think you will get investment.
I see all the time and I'm
291
00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:19,440
amazed sometimes they're pre
revenue things with with £7
292
00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,560
million valuations that are just
easily getting the money because
293
00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:25,400
the people like the idea.
And then I think even at even at
294
00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:30,640
VC level, I think what people
like at BC level is the is, is a
295
00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:33,280
believe, they're to believe that
there is a massive market
296
00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:35,720
opportunity because they want
the big, they want the big
297
00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:39,280
prizes.
Sometimes I don't think that's
298
00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:41,800
necessarily sometimes I think
that where there's a, where
299
00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:45,480
there's a huge market, there's a
lot of competition and, and in
300
00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:47,000
a, and so there will be other
players.
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00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:50,760
And then so big is good, but
huge isn't sort of 10 times
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better necessarily.
But I think VCs do like that.
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Yeah, I think that's a very good
insight.
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And if you'd one key piece of
advice to share and fund in the
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startup, what would it be?
In funding a startup, I think
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it's like, give you an example.
I mean, I had one of my own
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startups come back to me and
it's one, it's one of the ones
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that I've got to be careful what
I say is not going to give the
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name away, but it's one of the
ones that I probably, I'd
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probably after investing,
thought was that such a good
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idea?
And I, I think they will make
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it.
And I think they could be
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massive, but they, they are
struggling a little bit and they
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have got their, their, they came
to me with a, a new pitch deck
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saying we're raising again
because we, you know, we need to
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raise and we're raising at the
same valuation as as last time.
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And, and here's the story and
they showed me the story and it
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was just a fairy story.
It was basically if we, if we
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sell five times as much as we
have been selling, we'll be
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fine.
And it's going well.
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Well, I don't know where you're
getting that from because how,
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how's that, how, how are you
going to do that?
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You're not explaining it.
It's just like you've literally,
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you've literally just put the
percentage growth figure in that
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gets you to, gets you to
profitability and to and to have
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long enough runway.
And so I think that, you know,
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you, you, I, I think that and if
I look at that and that problem
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was that they were kind of
trying to do that in isolation.
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And so I went back and I sat
down with them and they said,
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look, let's look at this again.
And they, they had ways to
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monetize what they were doing
that they weren't doing.
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And, and that's what they needed
to do.
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And that's the only way out of
where they've got to.
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And they're, they're doing that
now.
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But you know, they were, they
just put their head in the sand
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and they weren't really facing
the brutal truth.
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And so I think, you know, I
think before you go to market
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making claims that, you know, be
honest if you're not going to,
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if it's not going to work,
don't, don't go to market.
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Just work out how, how you can
change it.
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So it does work because there's,
there's always a way to, there's
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always a way to kind of monetize
and, and, and revamp and pivot
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to make it work.
And sometimes they, they just
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try to get more funding for what
they're doing.
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So, yeah, yeah.
I think that's kind of great
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advice to finish on.
I think a lot of founders,
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definitely a bit of a reality
check because there's certainly
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ways they can get there, but
often they're just strong, the
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upward graph without too many
ways to get there.
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And Alexa, thanks so much for
going to the podcast.
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That was a really great
conversation.
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You should a lot of really
viable interesting for both
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founders and investors, which is
unique.
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So thank you for your time.
Thank you.
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Good luck.
Thanks for me.
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OK, best of.
Luck.
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00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,599
Thanks.
Hi, thanks for listening to this
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00:17:26,599 --> 00:17:29,480
weeks episode of the Founders
and Funding podcast.
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If you'd like to be a guest or
have a guest suggestion, please
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get in touch.
Thank you.