May 6, 2026
Ep 21 - Darragh Gaffney - Business Lead Ireland at Leyton
In this episode of the Founders & Funding Podcast, Philip Smith speaks with Darragh Gaffney, Business Lead Ireland at Leyton.
Darragh shares how Leyton helps startups and scaling companies unlock funding they didn't know was available to them, particularly through Ireland's R&D tax credit scheme. He talks about the importance of choosing the right funding mechanism at the right time, why good governance and documentation matter more than founders realise, and what separates the startups that scale from those that stall. They also discuss delegation, laser focus on commercial priorities, and why chasing the wrong money can cost you more than it gives you.
1
00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:03,480
Hi, welcome to the Founders and
Funding podcast.
2
00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:06,080
I'm your host, Philip Smith.
On the podcast, I'll be
3
00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:09,840
interviewing founders,
investors, startup advisors on
4
00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:13,520
how to fund the journey of your
startup and some tips and advice
5
00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:17,120
they have for you along the way.
This podcast is sponsored by
6
00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:19,200
Perfect Technologies and
Leighton.
7
00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:24,360
Enjoy the episode.
Hi, Dara, welcome to the
8
00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:28,000
Founders and Funding podcast.
Thanks very much Philip.
9
00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:31,440
Delighted to be here.
It's my delight to have you on
10
00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:33,960
Darren to go to start.
Could you talk to me about your
11
00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:37,560
company and your role?
Sure, absolutely.
12
00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:41,600
So Leighton is probably one of
the largest companies that
13
00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:43,560
you've never heard of, to be
honest.
14
00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:50,960
Globally, we're 3 1/2 thousand
employees active in 18 countries
15
00:00:51,480 --> 00:00:58,160
and basically we are a tax and
innovation consultancy, uh, that
16
00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:02,800
operates across everything from
where any tax incentives operate
17
00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:06,920
within, within a geography or a
country, uh, within Ireland
18
00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:11,720
specifically, that is a primary
focus of R&D tax credits,
19
00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:15,920
knowledge development box and
grand funding services is what
20
00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:20,360
we, what we deliver.
Uh, predominantly, Uh, so yeah.
21
00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:24,560
The company was founded as a
group back in 1997 by UH-2
22
00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:27,520
French guys, Francois and
Olivier, still active in the
23
00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:31,960
business and still 100%
completely owned by those guys.
24
00:01:31,960 --> 00:01:36,120
So it's all been driven by
organic growth and organic
25
00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:39,240
scaling across predominantly the
Northern hemisphere, but now
26
00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:42,680
active in, in moving into
Australia and New Zealand as
27
00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:45,200
well.
So yeah, that's that's what we
28
00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:47,440
do, Tax, tax incentives,
essentially.
29
00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:52,400
It's, it's an incredible story
to grow like, it's very rare a
30
00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:56,840
company grows like that and is
able to have that kind of global
31
00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:59,360
impact and, and have such a, a
large workforce.
32
00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:04,040
It is absolutely.
And and I think the two guys
33
00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:08,919
identified 2 pillars or two
areas to prioritize very
34
00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:10,919
quickly.
And back when the company was
35
00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:16,320
established, the first was they
developed an absolute sales
36
00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:20,520
machine and Leighton, I, I
always say that Leighton as a
37
00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:22,880
business could actually sell
anything.
38
00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:27,560
They just happen to sell or
indeed tax credit service or tax
39
00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:33,800
incentives to businesses.
But yeah, the, the SDO and the
40
00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,200
business development processes
that they have set up in the
41
00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,120
business have absolutely been
the pillar on which the business
42
00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:43,480
has scaled and, and and grown.
The second one I would say is,
43
00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:49,800
is very early on the guys
invested in tech, they built a
44
00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:54,360
software development centre of
excellence in Casablanca and the
45
00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:59,160
Casablanca office has now scaled
to nearly 800 software
46
00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:03,240
developers based in Casablanca,
right next door to the to the
47
00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:05,760
African headquarters of
Salesforce actually.
48
00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:08,920
So yeah, absolutely.
So it's that investment, early
49
00:03:08,920 --> 00:03:12,840
investment in tech and also in
very clearly structured and
50
00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:15,320
defined sales processes to drive
that growth.
51
00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:20,280
It's an incredible story, but
I'm very familiar of Leighton,
52
00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:24,480
of course, because your response
over the podcast, but also
53
00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:27,680
because I've worked with you in
a very familiar with your work,
54
00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:30,840
particularly in the Rd. tax
credits that you know have been
55
00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:33,720
massively beneficial to a number
of different set of companies to
56
00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:36,600
help them to maximize their
returns and the profitability,
57
00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:39,840
which is very crucial early on
and very relevant to this
58
00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:42,360
conversation about a fund, the
startups journey.
59
00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:47,920
It, it absolutely is.
And I I just make one like
60
00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:50,680
you're absolutely right, Philip.
We, we happen to sponsor this
61
00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:54,000
podcast, but in, in no ways or
means is, is this a sales
62
00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,880
exercise?
But if I give you a small bit of
63
00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:02,160
context and and I'll just give
you maybe 2 points. 1 is Ireland
64
00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,880
actually has the second most
generous or in the tax credit
65
00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:11,320
scheme in the OECDI think we're
just behind Portugal and in 2026
66
00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:14,680
that's increasing to from 30% to
35%.
67
00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:18,480
And in fact, Mehal Martin was at
a Scale Ireland event back in
68
00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:22,280
January and from the stage he
actually referenced it and said
69
00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:26,960
I don't know what more we can do
to incentivize Irish businesses
70
00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:30,000
to use the R&D tax credit scheme
in Ireland.
71
00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:34,480
And in particular what he was
talking about is the fact that
72
00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:40,200
of the 1.4 billion in OND tax
credits that was that was
73
00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:47,520
claimed in 2023, I think 85% of
that value was claimed by 15% of
74
00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:50,760
claimants.
So it's very much has been the
75
00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:55,320
domain of multinationals and
large entities, whereas there is
76
00:04:55,320 --> 00:05:01,040
a real push now for start-ups in
particular to use the OND tax
77
00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:04,280
credit scheme to to their
advantage because they are
78
00:05:04,280 --> 00:05:07,880
naturally carrying out research
and development, uh, within
79
00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:10,880
their business.
Because yes, absolutely it's
80
00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:13,360
something that's it's, it's one
of those rare win wins where
81
00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:15,720
it's just it's kind of a no
brainer for companies to do.
82
00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:20,200
There's nothing to lose.
And talk to me a bit more there.
83
00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:22,840
So talk to me a bit more about
your role, uh, at Leighton and
84
00:05:22,840 --> 00:05:24,640
what does an average day look
like right now?
85
00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:29,200
Yeah.
So my role, I might give you a
86
00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:31,720
bit of context as to where
Leighton Ireland and the Irish
87
00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:35,440
entity is at at the moment.
So believe it or not, Philip on
88
00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:39,640
on the 28th of April this day
last year I it was actually my
89
00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:41,760
first day with Leighton, believe
it or not.
90
00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:43,600
How was it?
Yeah.
91
00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:48,680
So, so and I was employee number
one of of the Leighton Irish
92
00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:51,640
entity.
So we were very much in start up
93
00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:56,840
mode ourselves as, as the Irish
entity, albeit with the, with
94
00:05:56,840 --> 00:06:00,880
the, the back office and the
shared support of of the UK
95
00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:04,000
business.
And so at the moment or over the
96
00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:07,720
last 12 months, there's nearly
no been no such thing as a
97
00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:11,440
typical day.
I, but I have absolutely
98
00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:15,560
prioritized one obviously
looking to generate new
99
00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:18,960
business.
I think when I came in at first
100
00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:25,000
I, I looked to prioritize a kind
of A702010 split. 70% was on
101
00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:29,560
that day-to-day scaled the
business, grow the business, get
102
00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:35,640
new staff in and actually hire
new staff, but also help them to
103
00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:39,680
actually leverage the network
of, of naturally innovative
104
00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:44,040
businesses in Ireland.
The other 20% was to, to try and
105
00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:48,480
change that dial in terms of
stock being the largest business
106
00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:53,960
that people have never heard of,
to becoming recognised as, as
107
00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:58,040
actually a market leader in the,
in the R&D tax credits and grant
108
00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:00,880
funding space.
And then that third part was,
109
00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:04,840
was the, the thought leadership
piece to see, you know, to, to
110
00:07:04,840 --> 00:07:09,160
be recognized then as an entity
that isn't just delivering
111
00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:13,120
operational service delivery,
but that can actually act as a,
112
00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:17,160
as a strategic partner.
So these days it's, it's
113
00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:21,000
oversight of we have, we have a
delivery team and we have a
114
00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,280
business development team.
So, so it's oversight of that
115
00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:27,880
team.
The team is now at 9:00 and I,
116
00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,440
it's looking to set the
standards and maintain, maintain
117
00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:35,080
what I believe is a, is a, is a
very excellent culture within
118
00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:39,000
the business and make sure that
the client ultimately is at the
119
00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:44,200
centre of, of everything that
we, that we do, you know, So my
120
00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:48,680
week at the moment is probably 2
days work from home, two to
121
00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:52,800
three days in the office or one
of those days can, can often be
122
00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:56,040
on the road visiting either
prospective clients or existing
123
00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:59,240
clients as well and helping them
navigate different challenges.
124
00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:02,680
So, so quite a mixed bag which
which I have to say I love, you
125
00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:04,840
know?
Yeah, I really like that.
126
00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:07,320
Well, first of all, it's great
to have that kind of combination
127
00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,080
of I think working from the
office home, a bit in the road,
128
00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:11,880
that's what everyone kind of
strives for.
129
00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:14,800
But I love that, you know,
putting companies at the center
130
00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:17,520
of the work that you do.
I think that's I love, I love
131
00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:19,280
hearing that.
I think it's always a good sign
132
00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:22,600
and to, to look at then a bit
more than Dara.
133
00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:26,760
So you've, you've talked to me a
bit already about how the, uh,
134
00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:28,680
how Leighton has funded its
journey to date.
135
00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,240
But I suppose how have you
helped, uh, do you have some
136
00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:33,760
examples of companies you've
helped, uh, to fundraiser?
137
00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:35,840
You've helped them with their
their only tax credits that
138
00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:37,520
they've benefited from working
with Leighton.
139
00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:41,760
Yeah, ABS absolutely.
And look, as you can respect,
140
00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:45,520
umm, we've, we work with a, a
massive amount of companies
141
00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:49,320
across a many number of sectors
and, and given a lot of
142
00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:52,080
confidentiality is at the heart
of what we do, we can't always
143
00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:55,560
name check too many of them.
Of course.
144
00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:59,800
But, but absolutely if, if I
talk about some of the, some of
145
00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:06,200
the general examples of, of what
we can do, we often the value we
146
00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:10,640
bring is, is often twofold.
One is, is actually from an
147
00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:14,680
awareness point of view, many
start-ups in particular or
148
00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:19,600
companies that are in that
scaling growth stage do not
149
00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:24,280
always realize actually one,
that the R&D tax credit scheme
150
00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:27,400
exists or two that they can
actually claim.
151
00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:30,880
So quite often they think that
one, if they're pre revenue or
152
00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:34,240
two, if they're pre profitable,
they don't qualify for their R&D
153
00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:36,720
tax credit where that's just not
true.
154
00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:42,320
Any company that is liable to
file ACT one form may claim
155
00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:44,560
you're in the tax credits
irrespective.
156
00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:48,280
The second thing then is that
actually and and that then
157
00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:51,920
naturally generates actually a
revenue line back into the
158
00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:57,240
business because it is, it is
income because you can take it
159
00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:00,680
as a cash injection into the
business from the revenue
160
00:10:00,680 --> 00:10:03,600
commissioners.
And so it can go down as as a
161
00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:06,160
revenue line item.
So that's that's the first one
162
00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:10,720
and that's often often the most
impactful, impactful aspect.
163
00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:17,320
The second aspect then is, is
what we call the hidden R&D is
164
00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:22,160
that companies may be go, but
that's just what we do, you
165
00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:25,560
know, and then and we go, yeah,
but that doesn't mean there's
166
00:10:25,560 --> 00:10:29,600
not R&D in there and you can't
claim the tax credit for it as a
167
00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:32,240
result.
So as a result, we have industry
168
00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:35,440
experts from people that have
worked in industry in the
169
00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:37,240
different sectors that we
service.
170
00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:41,080
And so, you know, if you're in,
if you're in fintech or if
171
00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:44,480
you're in software development
and we've got guys that have
172
00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:47,320
been at the coalface of those
type of businesses.
173
00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:50,520
So they know how to have a
conversation with your tech
174
00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:54,400
leads and uncover that hidden
R&D activity that's that's
175
00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:57,520
within your business.
And we often find that even with
176
00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:00,320
a business that has been
claiming or in the tax credits
177
00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:05,400
to date that we can quite often
identify a significant uplift in
178
00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:07,080
the value of their claim as a
result.
179
00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:09,520
So all about cash flow, you
know.
180
00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:12,400
Really like that.
It's it's a really interesting
181
00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:14,920
approach.
I think trying to bring in an
182
00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:16,560
expert.
I think it's one of the most
183
00:11:16,560 --> 00:11:19,720
small companies struggle to do
is to bring in someone from the
184
00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:23,160
team that has expertise in that
company's specific niche of
185
00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:26,040
their industry in their product
or service and then be able to
186
00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:29,240
advise them accordingly.
And that's a very valuable
187
00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:33,680
solution to offer solve as a
problem of, you know, founders
188
00:11:33,680 --> 00:11:38,240
not knowing what is the only
opportunity for them and to take
189
00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:40,160
things there.
Then maybe a bit more broad and
190
00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:44,760
kind of back a bit to a more
general and aspect looking at
191
00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:47,960
funding, like what is the best
way to fund a startup journey in
192
00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:50,760
your opinion?
Yeah.
193
00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:54,840
I think that's actually, it's
actually quite a tough question
194
00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:56,760
almost.
It is.
195
00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:01,760
It is.
I think there's and the
196
00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:08,080
principle has to be to choose
the right funding mechanism for
197
00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,720
the right body of work that you
need to do and at the right
198
00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:15,080
time.
And with that being the ultimate
199
00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:17,520
goal.
That's a lot easier said than
200
00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:20,040
done.
And I, I think sometimes,
201
00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:24,360
especially in the Irish
environment where the state
202
00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:28,840
agencies or VCs who often
control that early access to
203
00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:33,880
money nearly want to see that
you've bootstrapped and, and
204
00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:38,080
developed a proof of concept
and, and put cash and skin in
205
00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:41,440
the game yourself.
So, so that is, that is, it is
206
00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:45,320
a, it is a tough one.
Outside of that, I'd say
207
00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:48,760
identify what do you actually
need.
208
00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,560
And that generally comes down to
three things.
209
00:12:52,560 --> 00:12:56,280
Now every startup will probably
just automatically say cash, I
210
00:12:56,280 --> 00:13:00,080
need cash, I need cash, I need
cash, you know, but absolute
211
00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,600
actually if you look at it and
go, well, do you need cash to
212
00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:09,040
fund internal resource within
your own business or do you need
213
00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:12,440
access to capability that you
don't currently have within your
214
00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:14,840
business?
Or actually, do you need access
215
00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:17,760
to a skill set that doesn't
currently exist within your
216
00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:21,520
business?
And I think a lot of the time
217
00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:25,760
startups can end up being quite
insular and go, it all has to be
218
00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:29,440
delivered in house and pay for
nothing externally.
219
00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:35,040
Whereas actually there is a
massive amount of what I'd call
220
00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:38,160
enabling support that can be
delivered within the business
221
00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:45,440
one way or one way or another.
So, so yeah, I'm, I'm afraid I
222
00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:48,800
don't, I don't have the magic
bullet answer.
223
00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:52,800
I'm, I'm afraid.
But I, I think if there's
224
00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:55,760
certain principles and certain
questions you can ask yourself,
225
00:13:56,600 --> 00:14:00,200
I think they will help you
identify those those funding
226
00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:03,920
lines that are right for you.
Well, I think that's, that's the
227
00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:05,440
right answer there because I
don't think it, you know, I
228
00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:08,760
don't know if there is, it's,
it's rare to say and it always
229
00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:12,320
varies by the company and, and
the situation and what they're
230
00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:14,800
trying to achieve.
So, but I think the perspective
231
00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:19,160
of you, I think if you can get
that right and understand the
232
00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:21,160
criteria of what your business
needs, business needs, and I
233
00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:25,520
think that will lead you to been
able to get the right supports
234
00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:28,920
and funding in place and to look
at the founding team then a bit
235
00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:30,880
as well.
Derek and I know you work with a
236
00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:32,680
lot of different startups out of
founders.
237
00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,160
What skills should new founders
possess?
238
00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:38,200
And you know, does that impact
perhaps how they've they fund
239
00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,880
the startup or the types of
mechanisms that they look for?
240
00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:47,400
Yeah, it it do you mean in terms
of the the skill sets that I see
241
00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:51,000
and founders that develop
successful startups or?
242
00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:54,600
Yeah, I suppose it's both the
the skills that founders have
243
00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:57,920
the developed successful
startups, but then also is there
244
00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:01,360
skills I suppose you find from
companies working with Leighton
245
00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:06,960
that makes them a better fish
for our new tax credits or for
246
00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:10,480
different grant mechanisms.
Is is there if if you have maybe
247
00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:14,560
a more tech focused team or
skill sets or do you find it
248
00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:20,600
kind of applies to anyone, any
any founder avails of of these
249
00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:23,760
grants and these different
mechanisms and tax credits that
250
00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:25,560
can support them?
Yeah, yeah.
251
00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:29,520
And so I, I kind of just
reiterate the same point is
252
00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:35,080
don't chase bad money basically.
And and that can also be grant
253
00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:37,920
funding.
Do you know, because you may get
254
00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:41,840
the money, but you may end up
spending more time making a
255
00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:45,280
square peg for the round hole.
Do you know, go back to that
256
00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:50,560
point of look at grant funding.
There is an absolute myriad of
257
00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:54,680
of grant funding options out
there, but is it the right
258
00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:58,080
funding mechanism for the right
project and at the right time of
259
00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:00,880
the business?
And if you and if you cannot say
260
00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:04,920
yes to all three of those
questions, well then you may end
261
00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:07,680
up actually just causing
yourself more hassles in the
262
00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:11,320
medium and long term in terms of
making that funding mechanism
263
00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,440
fit something else that is not
core to your business.
264
00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:19,600
You know as well as I do,
Philip, that every founder needs
265
00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,880
absolute laser focus on what
their commercial priorities are.
266
00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:27,600
Yes.
It's a, it's a constant daily
267
00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:34,480
iteration of is what I'm working
on this hour, this day, this
268
00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:39,800
week, this month, this quarter,
fully, 100% aligned with the
269
00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:43,600
commercial priorities or the
revenue generating activities of
270
00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:47,480
my business at the moment.
And if the answer is a
271
00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:50,760
hesitation or a no, well then
you have to stop it and get back
272
00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:53,760
on track.
And it's absolutely the same
273
00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:55,960
thing when it comes to when it
comes to funding.
274
00:16:55,960 --> 00:17:00,800
So it is that that laser focus
that's more at a macro level, at
275
00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:07,960
an operational level, there can
often be or sometimes be the
276
00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:11,560
mentality of of kind of, you
know, move fast and break
277
00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:14,480
things.
And again, that can at times
278
00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:16,680
that can end up being a false
economy.
279
00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:23,400
So what is really is, is getting
your structures and processes
280
00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:30,800
and documentation foundation set
early, get those standards set
281
00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:34,720
early because absolutely they
are the first things that will
282
00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:37,640
fall over as the business starts
to scale.
283
00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:42,880
And why do I reference those?
Well, I reference those because
284
00:17:43,360 --> 00:17:48,960
if you've set those standards
and that operational framework
285
00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:54,200
from the start one, it will, it
will absolutely help in terms of
286
00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:57,640
your R&D tax credits claim
because the information is
287
00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:01,160
already there and you're not
scrambling to try and to try and
288
00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:03,680
compile something.
And, and absolutely, that's,
289
00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,320
that's quite often where we end
up doing a lot of work with,
290
00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:10,520
with start-ups.
But the second part is, is then
291
00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:15,800
when it comes to external
investment, if founders and
292
00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:19,160
startups can already demonstrate
that, that good governance and
293
00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:23,160
structure and process already
exists, Well, that gives
294
00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:25,440
confidence in the investor that
these guys actually know what
295
00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:28,840
they're at.
Do you know and that actually do
296
00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:32,840
you know they have a scalable
business that won't just fall
297
00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:37,640
over the 2nd that it takes off?
Yeah, that's really interesting.
298
00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:42,000
Like it, it, it always, it
doesn't come back in part to the
299
00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,160
founders themselves and then the
kind of work that they're
300
00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:47,360
undertaking.
And then you know what, what is
301
00:18:47,360 --> 00:18:51,560
a fit in terms of grants or all
the mechanisms they can apply
302
00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:54,920
for to come into the business to
support them and the fit there
303
00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:59,160
and to look then more towards
investors there are like how,
304
00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,240
how can companies attract
investors effectively?
305
00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:04,920
Do you think is there, is there
something you see from your work
306
00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:09,200
with companies that is a good
signal to can be a good signal
307
00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:14,560
to outside investors?
Yeah, I, I, I think the first
308
00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:18,480
thing and I'd go back to what,
what is probably central to what
309
00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:20,720
I'm trying to do with, with
Leighton Ireland.
310
00:19:21,120 --> 00:19:26,720
And it's keeping your, your end
client, your end user, basically
311
00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:30,320
the person who is going to pay
the bill or respond to your
312
00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:34,240
product or services at the heart
and at the center of your
313
00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:36,160
thought process for everything
that you do.
314
00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:41,280
Do you know Otherwise you're
going to be on a hiding to
315
00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:43,200
nothing.
Do you know?
316
00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:45,560
Do you know?
And something's only worth what
317
00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:48,720
somebody else is willing to pay
for us, not what you think is
318
00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:51,360
its value or.
Very true.
319
00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:55,120
Yeah, or, or the amount that it
took you to build it.
320
00:19:55,720 --> 00:20:00,160
Do you know, again, can be, can
be two very, two very different,
321
00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:03,640
different things.
So you go back to the thing of,
322
00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:05,760
well, what is the problem you're
solving?
323
00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:09,720
What, what problem does your
business actually solve?
324
00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:12,280
It's the old thing of you don't
sell a mattress, you sell a good
325
00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:15,400
night's sleep.
And it's, it's the same with
326
00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,960
ourselves.
Yes, technically we sell or in
327
00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:22,560
the tax credit.
Services, but actually what we
328
00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:27,280
sell is is compliance and Peace
of Mind with the revenue
329
00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:30,320
commissioners.
Do you know that's that's why
330
00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:35,000
companies are happy to to bring
us in ultimately one one way or
331
00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:38,160
another.
I think from a point of view as
332
00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:42,200
well as is I think a lot of
founders can can struggle with
333
00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:44,000
delegation.
I, I know I struggle with
334
00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:49,240
delegation myself at times as
well, but just at the point
335
00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,760
where we feel ourselves, where
you feel yourself retracting and
336
00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:55,720
when the pressure comes on and
almost kind of closing in and
337
00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:57,640
taking everything all on
yourself.
338
00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,160
Actually, that's the time when
we ironically need to open
339
00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:04,800
ourselves up and and start to
start to delegate and trust
340
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:09,360
those around us instead.
Yeah, and I fully agree.
341
00:21:09,360 --> 00:21:12,920
I think it's a, it's a very
difficult skill to get good at,
342
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,840
but it's also increasingly
important as the company grows.
343
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:18,760
It's, uh, well, I think, I think
you're right as well.
344
00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:21,000
They're like, you're not just
selling our new tax credits.
345
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:22,680
Like you're selling a lot of
things.
346
00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:26,320
You're selling profitability and
a positive year and, uh, you
347
00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:27,800
know, better growth for the
companies.
348
00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:30,600
There's a lot of things I think
it trickles down to and feeds
349
00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:33,640
into if you can get it right.
And before we finish up there,
350
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:37,640
if you'd one key piece of a key
piece of advice to share on fun
351
00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:44,320
in a startup, what would it be?
Umm, I think, I think I'd go
352
00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:51,000
back to that point of don't,
don't, don't kind of get caught
353
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:57,240
chasing kind of sparkly sparkly
funding or or kind of sparkly
354
00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:01,360
money.
Generally, if something is seems
355
00:22:01,360 --> 00:22:04,960
too good to be true, it often
ends up being that case.
356
00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:08,720
Do you know?
The easier it is to access quite
357
00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:12,760
often the more problems it'll
end up causing you in in the
358
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:14,120
long run.
Do you know?
359
00:22:14,120 --> 00:22:18,440
So I'd say I'd say exactly that.
Don't, don't, don't look to
360
00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:22,240
access either grant funding or
any kind of source of funding
361
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:26,480
that could could end up acting
as a false economy and bite new
362
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:28,400
bite new in the medium to long
term.
363
00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:33,280
Yeah, I think that's a very good
point that I think most founders
364
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:35,920
learn the hard way.
Dara, thanks so much for coming
365
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:37,440
on the podcast.
That was a really great
366
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:40,760
conversation.
I think Late in Ireland is doing
367
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:44,160
great work and I'm excited to
see where it goes over the
368
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:46,800
coming years.
Fantastic.
369
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,600
Thanks very much, Phillip.
My pleasure, Derek.
370
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:53,080
Hi.
Thanks for listening to this
371
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:55,960
book's episode of the Founders
and Funding podcast.
372
00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:58,640
If you'd like to be a guest or
have a guest suggestion, please
373
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:00,440
get in touch.
Thank you.
00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:03,480
Hi, welcome to the Founders and
Funding podcast.
2
00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:06,080
I'm your host, Philip Smith.
On the podcast, I'll be
3
00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:09,840
interviewing founders,
investors, startup advisors on
4
00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:13,520
how to fund the journey of your
startup and some tips and advice
5
00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:17,120
they have for you along the way.
This podcast is sponsored by
6
00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:19,200
Perfect Technologies and
Leighton.
7
00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:24,360
Enjoy the episode.
Hi, Dara, welcome to the
8
00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:28,000
Founders and Funding podcast.
Thanks very much Philip.
9
00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:31,440
Delighted to be here.
It's my delight to have you on
10
00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:33,960
Darren to go to start.
Could you talk to me about your
11
00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:37,560
company and your role?
Sure, absolutely.
12
00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:41,600
So Leighton is probably one of
the largest companies that
13
00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:43,560
you've never heard of, to be
honest.
14
00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:50,960
Globally, we're 3 1/2 thousand
employees active in 18 countries
15
00:00:51,480 --> 00:00:58,160
and basically we are a tax and
innovation consultancy, uh, that
16
00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:02,800
operates across everything from
where any tax incentives operate
17
00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:06,920
within, within a geography or a
country, uh, within Ireland
18
00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:11,720
specifically, that is a primary
focus of R&D tax credits,
19
00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:15,920
knowledge development box and
grand funding services is what
20
00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:20,360
we, what we deliver.
Uh, predominantly, Uh, so yeah.
21
00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:24,560
The company was founded as a
group back in 1997 by UH-2
22
00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:27,520
French guys, Francois and
Olivier, still active in the
23
00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:31,960
business and still 100%
completely owned by those guys.
24
00:01:31,960 --> 00:01:36,120
So it's all been driven by
organic growth and organic
25
00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:39,240
scaling across predominantly the
Northern hemisphere, but now
26
00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:42,680
active in, in moving into
Australia and New Zealand as
27
00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:45,200
well.
So yeah, that's that's what we
28
00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:47,440
do, Tax, tax incentives,
essentially.
29
00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:52,400
It's, it's an incredible story
to grow like, it's very rare a
30
00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:56,840
company grows like that and is
able to have that kind of global
31
00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:59,360
impact and, and have such a, a
large workforce.
32
00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:04,040
It is absolutely.
And and I think the two guys
33
00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:08,919
identified 2 pillars or two
areas to prioritize very
34
00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:10,919
quickly.
And back when the company was
35
00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:16,320
established, the first was they
developed an absolute sales
36
00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:20,520
machine and Leighton, I, I
always say that Leighton as a
37
00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:22,880
business could actually sell
anything.
38
00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:27,560
They just happen to sell or
indeed tax credit service or tax
39
00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:33,800
incentives to businesses.
But yeah, the, the SDO and the
40
00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,200
business development processes
that they have set up in the
41
00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,120
business have absolutely been
the pillar on which the business
42
00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:43,480
has scaled and, and and grown.
The second one I would say is,
43
00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:49,800
is very early on the guys
invested in tech, they built a
44
00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:54,360
software development centre of
excellence in Casablanca and the
45
00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:59,160
Casablanca office has now scaled
to nearly 800 software
46
00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:03,240
developers based in Casablanca,
right next door to the to the
47
00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:05,760
African headquarters of
Salesforce actually.
48
00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:08,920
So yeah, absolutely.
So it's that investment, early
49
00:03:08,920 --> 00:03:12,840
investment in tech and also in
very clearly structured and
50
00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:15,320
defined sales processes to drive
that growth.
51
00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:20,280
It's an incredible story, but
I'm very familiar of Leighton,
52
00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:24,480
of course, because your response
over the podcast, but also
53
00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:27,680
because I've worked with you in
a very familiar with your work,
54
00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:30,840
particularly in the Rd. tax
credits that you know have been
55
00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:33,720
massively beneficial to a number
of different set of companies to
56
00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:36,600
help them to maximize their
returns and the profitability,
57
00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:39,840
which is very crucial early on
and very relevant to this
58
00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:42,360
conversation about a fund, the
startups journey.
59
00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:47,920
It, it absolutely is.
And I I just make one like
60
00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:50,680
you're absolutely right, Philip.
We, we happen to sponsor this
61
00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:54,000
podcast, but in, in no ways or
means is, is this a sales
62
00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,880
exercise?
But if I give you a small bit of
63
00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:02,160
context and and I'll just give
you maybe 2 points. 1 is Ireland
64
00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,880
actually has the second most
generous or in the tax credit
65
00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:11,320
scheme in the OECDI think we're
just behind Portugal and in 2026
66
00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:14,680
that's increasing to from 30% to
35%.
67
00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:18,480
And in fact, Mehal Martin was at
a Scale Ireland event back in
68
00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:22,280
January and from the stage he
actually referenced it and said
69
00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:26,960
I don't know what more we can do
to incentivize Irish businesses
70
00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:30,000
to use the R&D tax credit scheme
in Ireland.
71
00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:34,480
And in particular what he was
talking about is the fact that
72
00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:40,200
of the 1.4 billion in OND tax
credits that was that was
73
00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:47,520
claimed in 2023, I think 85% of
that value was claimed by 15% of
74
00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:50,760
claimants.
So it's very much has been the
75
00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:55,320
domain of multinationals and
large entities, whereas there is
76
00:04:55,320 --> 00:05:01,040
a real push now for start-ups in
particular to use the OND tax
77
00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:04,280
credit scheme to to their
advantage because they are
78
00:05:04,280 --> 00:05:07,880
naturally carrying out research
and development, uh, within
79
00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:10,880
their business.
Because yes, absolutely it's
80
00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:13,360
something that's it's, it's one
of those rare win wins where
81
00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:15,720
it's just it's kind of a no
brainer for companies to do.
82
00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:20,200
There's nothing to lose.
And talk to me a bit more there.
83
00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:22,840
So talk to me a bit more about
your role, uh, at Leighton and
84
00:05:22,840 --> 00:05:24,640
what does an average day look
like right now?
85
00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:29,200
Yeah.
So my role, I might give you a
86
00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:31,720
bit of context as to where
Leighton Ireland and the Irish
87
00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:35,440
entity is at at the moment.
So believe it or not, Philip on
88
00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:39,640
on the 28th of April this day
last year I it was actually my
89
00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:41,760
first day with Leighton, believe
it or not.
90
00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:43,600
How was it?
Yeah.
91
00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:48,680
So, so and I was employee number
one of of the Leighton Irish
92
00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:51,640
entity.
So we were very much in start up
93
00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:56,840
mode ourselves as, as the Irish
entity, albeit with the, with
94
00:05:56,840 --> 00:06:00,880
the, the back office and the
shared support of of the UK
95
00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:04,000
business.
And so at the moment or over the
96
00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:07,720
last 12 months, there's nearly
no been no such thing as a
97
00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:11,440
typical day.
I, but I have absolutely
98
00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:15,560
prioritized one obviously
looking to generate new
99
00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:18,960
business.
I think when I came in at first
100
00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:25,000
I, I looked to prioritize a kind
of A702010 split. 70% was on
101
00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:29,560
that day-to-day scaled the
business, grow the business, get
102
00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:35,640
new staff in and actually hire
new staff, but also help them to
103
00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:39,680
actually leverage the network
of, of naturally innovative
104
00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:44,040
businesses in Ireland.
The other 20% was to, to try and
105
00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:48,480
change that dial in terms of
stock being the largest business
106
00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:53,960
that people have never heard of,
to becoming recognised as, as
107
00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:58,040
actually a market leader in the,
in the R&D tax credits and grant
108
00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:00,880
funding space.
And then that third part was,
109
00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:04,840
was the, the thought leadership
piece to see, you know, to, to
110
00:07:04,840 --> 00:07:09,160
be recognized then as an entity
that isn't just delivering
111
00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:13,120
operational service delivery,
but that can actually act as a,
112
00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:17,160
as a strategic partner.
So these days it's, it's
113
00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:21,000
oversight of we have, we have a
delivery team and we have a
114
00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,280
business development team.
So, so it's oversight of that
115
00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:27,880
team.
The team is now at 9:00 and I,
116
00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,440
it's looking to set the
standards and maintain, maintain
117
00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:35,080
what I believe is a, is a, is a
very excellent culture within
118
00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:39,000
the business and make sure that
the client ultimately is at the
119
00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:44,200
centre of, of everything that
we, that we do, you know, So my
120
00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:48,680
week at the moment is probably 2
days work from home, two to
121
00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:52,800
three days in the office or one
of those days can, can often be
122
00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:56,040
on the road visiting either
prospective clients or existing
123
00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:59,240
clients as well and helping them
navigate different challenges.
124
00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:02,680
So, so quite a mixed bag which
which I have to say I love, you
125
00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:04,840
know?
Yeah, I really like that.
126
00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:07,320
Well, first of all, it's great
to have that kind of combination
127
00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,080
of I think working from the
office home, a bit in the road,
128
00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:11,880
that's what everyone kind of
strives for.
129
00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:14,800
But I love that, you know,
putting companies at the center
130
00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:17,520
of the work that you do.
I think that's I love, I love
131
00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:19,280
hearing that.
I think it's always a good sign
132
00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:22,600
and to, to look at then a bit
more than Dara.
133
00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:26,760
So you've, you've talked to me a
bit already about how the, uh,
134
00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:28,680
how Leighton has funded its
journey to date.
135
00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,240
But I suppose how have you
helped, uh, do you have some
136
00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:33,760
examples of companies you've
helped, uh, to fundraiser?
137
00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:35,840
You've helped them with their
their only tax credits that
138
00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:37,520
they've benefited from working
with Leighton.
139
00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:41,760
Yeah, ABS absolutely.
And look, as you can respect,
140
00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:45,520
umm, we've, we work with a, a
massive amount of companies
141
00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:49,320
across a many number of sectors
and, and given a lot of
142
00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:52,080
confidentiality is at the heart
of what we do, we can't always
143
00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:55,560
name check too many of them.
Of course.
144
00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:59,800
But, but absolutely if, if I
talk about some of the, some of
145
00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:06,200
the general examples of, of what
we can do, we often the value we
146
00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:10,640
bring is, is often twofold.
One is, is actually from an
147
00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:14,680
awareness point of view, many
start-ups in particular or
148
00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:19,600
companies that are in that
scaling growth stage do not
149
00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:24,280
always realize actually one,
that the R&D tax credit scheme
150
00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:27,400
exists or two that they can
actually claim.
151
00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:30,880
So quite often they think that
one, if they're pre revenue or
152
00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:34,240
two, if they're pre profitable,
they don't qualify for their R&D
153
00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:36,720
tax credit where that's just not
true.
154
00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:42,320
Any company that is liable to
file ACT one form may claim
155
00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:44,560
you're in the tax credits
irrespective.
156
00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:48,280
The second thing then is that
actually and and that then
157
00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:51,920
naturally generates actually a
revenue line back into the
158
00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:57,240
business because it is, it is
income because you can take it
159
00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:00,680
as a cash injection into the
business from the revenue
160
00:10:00,680 --> 00:10:03,600
commissioners.
And so it can go down as as a
161
00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:06,160
revenue line item.
So that's that's the first one
162
00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:10,720
and that's often often the most
impactful, impactful aspect.
163
00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:17,320
The second aspect then is, is
what we call the hidden R&D is
164
00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:22,160
that companies may be go, but
that's just what we do, you
165
00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:25,560
know, and then and we go, yeah,
but that doesn't mean there's
166
00:10:25,560 --> 00:10:29,600
not R&D in there and you can't
claim the tax credit for it as a
167
00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:32,240
result.
So as a result, we have industry
168
00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:35,440
experts from people that have
worked in industry in the
169
00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:37,240
different sectors that we
service.
170
00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:41,080
And so, you know, if you're in,
if you're in fintech or if
171
00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:44,480
you're in software development
and we've got guys that have
172
00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:47,320
been at the coalface of those
type of businesses.
173
00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:50,520
So they know how to have a
conversation with your tech
174
00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:54,400
leads and uncover that hidden
R&D activity that's that's
175
00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:57,520
within your business.
And we often find that even with
176
00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:00,320
a business that has been
claiming or in the tax credits
177
00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:05,400
to date that we can quite often
identify a significant uplift in
178
00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:07,080
the value of their claim as a
result.
179
00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:09,520
So all about cash flow, you
know.
180
00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:12,400
Really like that.
It's it's a really interesting
181
00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:14,920
approach.
I think trying to bring in an
182
00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:16,560
expert.
I think it's one of the most
183
00:11:16,560 --> 00:11:19,720
small companies struggle to do
is to bring in someone from the
184
00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:23,160
team that has expertise in that
company's specific niche of
185
00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:26,040
their industry in their product
or service and then be able to
186
00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:29,240
advise them accordingly.
And that's a very valuable
187
00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:33,680
solution to offer solve as a
problem of, you know, founders
188
00:11:33,680 --> 00:11:38,240
not knowing what is the only
opportunity for them and to take
189
00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:40,160
things there.
Then maybe a bit more broad and
190
00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:44,760
kind of back a bit to a more
general and aspect looking at
191
00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:47,960
funding, like what is the best
way to fund a startup journey in
192
00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:50,760
your opinion?
Yeah.
193
00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:54,840
I think that's actually, it's
actually quite a tough question
194
00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:56,760
almost.
It is.
195
00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:01,760
It is.
I think there's and the
196
00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:08,080
principle has to be to choose
the right funding mechanism for
197
00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,720
the right body of work that you
need to do and at the right
198
00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:15,080
time.
And with that being the ultimate
199
00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:17,520
goal.
That's a lot easier said than
200
00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:20,040
done.
And I, I think sometimes,
201
00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:24,360
especially in the Irish
environment where the state
202
00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:28,840
agencies or VCs who often
control that early access to
203
00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:33,880
money nearly want to see that
you've bootstrapped and, and
204
00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:38,080
developed a proof of concept
and, and put cash and skin in
205
00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:41,440
the game yourself.
So, so that is, that is, it is
206
00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:45,320
a, it is a tough one.
Outside of that, I'd say
207
00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:48,760
identify what do you actually
need.
208
00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,560
And that generally comes down to
three things.
209
00:12:52,560 --> 00:12:56,280
Now every startup will probably
just automatically say cash, I
210
00:12:56,280 --> 00:13:00,080
need cash, I need cash, I need
cash, you know, but absolute
211
00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,600
actually if you look at it and
go, well, do you need cash to
212
00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:09,040
fund internal resource within
your own business or do you need
213
00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:12,440
access to capability that you
don't currently have within your
214
00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:14,840
business?
Or actually, do you need access
215
00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:17,760
to a skill set that doesn't
currently exist within your
216
00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:21,520
business?
And I think a lot of the time
217
00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:25,760
startups can end up being quite
insular and go, it all has to be
218
00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:29,440
delivered in house and pay for
nothing externally.
219
00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:35,040
Whereas actually there is a
massive amount of what I'd call
220
00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:38,160
enabling support that can be
delivered within the business
221
00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:45,440
one way or one way or another.
So, so yeah, I'm, I'm afraid I
222
00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:48,800
don't, I don't have the magic
bullet answer.
223
00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:52,800
I'm, I'm afraid.
But I, I think if there's
224
00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:55,760
certain principles and certain
questions you can ask yourself,
225
00:13:56,600 --> 00:14:00,200
I think they will help you
identify those those funding
226
00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:03,920
lines that are right for you.
Well, I think that's, that's the
227
00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:05,440
right answer there because I
don't think it, you know, I
228
00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:08,760
don't know if there is, it's,
it's rare to say and it always
229
00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:12,320
varies by the company and, and
the situation and what they're
230
00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:14,800
trying to achieve.
So, but I think the perspective
231
00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:19,160
of you, I think if you can get
that right and understand the
232
00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:21,160
criteria of what your business
needs, business needs, and I
233
00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:25,520
think that will lead you to been
able to get the right supports
234
00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:28,920
and funding in place and to look
at the founding team then a bit
235
00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:30,880
as well.
Derek and I know you work with a
236
00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:32,680
lot of different startups out of
founders.
237
00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,160
What skills should new founders
possess?
238
00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:38,200
And you know, does that impact
perhaps how they've they fund
239
00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,880
the startup or the types of
mechanisms that they look for?
240
00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:47,400
Yeah, it it do you mean in terms
of the the skill sets that I see
241
00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:51,000
and founders that develop
successful startups or?
242
00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:54,600
Yeah, I suppose it's both the
the skills that founders have
243
00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:57,920
the developed successful
startups, but then also is there
244
00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:01,360
skills I suppose you find from
companies working with Leighton
245
00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:06,960
that makes them a better fish
for our new tax credits or for
246
00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:10,480
different grant mechanisms.
Is is there if if you have maybe
247
00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:14,560
a more tech focused team or
skill sets or do you find it
248
00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:20,600
kind of applies to anyone, any
any founder avails of of these
249
00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:23,760
grants and these different
mechanisms and tax credits that
250
00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:25,560
can support them?
Yeah, yeah.
251
00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:29,520
And so I, I kind of just
reiterate the same point is
252
00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:35,080
don't chase bad money basically.
And and that can also be grant
253
00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:37,920
funding.
Do you know, because you may get
254
00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:41,840
the money, but you may end up
spending more time making a
255
00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:45,280
square peg for the round hole.
Do you know, go back to that
256
00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:50,560
point of look at grant funding.
There is an absolute myriad of
257
00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:54,680
of grant funding options out
there, but is it the right
258
00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:58,080
funding mechanism for the right
project and at the right time of
259
00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:00,880
the business?
And if you and if you cannot say
260
00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:04,920
yes to all three of those
questions, well then you may end
261
00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:07,680
up actually just causing
yourself more hassles in the
262
00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:11,320
medium and long term in terms of
making that funding mechanism
263
00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,440
fit something else that is not
core to your business.
264
00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:19,600
You know as well as I do,
Philip, that every founder needs
265
00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,880
absolute laser focus on what
their commercial priorities are.
266
00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:27,600
Yes.
It's a, it's a constant daily
267
00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:34,480
iteration of is what I'm working
on this hour, this day, this
268
00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:39,800
week, this month, this quarter,
fully, 100% aligned with the
269
00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:43,600
commercial priorities or the
revenue generating activities of
270
00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:47,480
my business at the moment.
And if the answer is a
271
00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:50,760
hesitation or a no, well then
you have to stop it and get back
272
00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:53,760
on track.
And it's absolutely the same
273
00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:55,960
thing when it comes to when it
comes to funding.
274
00:16:55,960 --> 00:17:00,800
So it is that that laser focus
that's more at a macro level, at
275
00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:07,960
an operational level, there can
often be or sometimes be the
276
00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:11,560
mentality of of kind of, you
know, move fast and break
277
00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:14,480
things.
And again, that can at times
278
00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:16,680
that can end up being a false
economy.
279
00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:23,400
So what is really is, is getting
your structures and processes
280
00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:30,800
and documentation foundation set
early, get those standards set
281
00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:34,720
early because absolutely they
are the first things that will
282
00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:37,640
fall over as the business starts
to scale.
283
00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:42,880
And why do I reference those?
Well, I reference those because
284
00:17:43,360 --> 00:17:48,960
if you've set those standards
and that operational framework
285
00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:54,200
from the start one, it will, it
will absolutely help in terms of
286
00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:57,640
your R&D tax credits claim
because the information is
287
00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:01,160
already there and you're not
scrambling to try and to try and
288
00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:03,680
compile something.
And, and absolutely, that's,
289
00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,320
that's quite often where we end
up doing a lot of work with,
290
00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:10,520
with start-ups.
But the second part is, is then
291
00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:15,800
when it comes to external
investment, if founders and
292
00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:19,160
startups can already demonstrate
that, that good governance and
293
00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:23,160
structure and process already
exists, Well, that gives
294
00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:25,440
confidence in the investor that
these guys actually know what
295
00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:28,840
they're at.
Do you know and that actually do
296
00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:32,840
you know they have a scalable
business that won't just fall
297
00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:37,640
over the 2nd that it takes off?
Yeah, that's really interesting.
298
00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:42,000
Like it, it, it always, it
doesn't come back in part to the
299
00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,160
founders themselves and then the
kind of work that they're
300
00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:47,360
undertaking.
And then you know what, what is
301
00:18:47,360 --> 00:18:51,560
a fit in terms of grants or all
the mechanisms they can apply
302
00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:54,920
for to come into the business to
support them and the fit there
303
00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:59,160
and to look then more towards
investors there are like how,
304
00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,240
how can companies attract
investors effectively?
305
00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:04,920
Do you think is there, is there
something you see from your work
306
00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:09,200
with companies that is a good
signal to can be a good signal
307
00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:14,560
to outside investors?
Yeah, I, I, I think the first
308
00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:18,480
thing and I'd go back to what,
what is probably central to what
309
00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:20,720
I'm trying to do with, with
Leighton Ireland.
310
00:19:21,120 --> 00:19:26,720
And it's keeping your, your end
client, your end user, basically
311
00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:30,320
the person who is going to pay
the bill or respond to your
312
00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:34,240
product or services at the heart
and at the center of your
313
00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:36,160
thought process for everything
that you do.
314
00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:41,280
Do you know Otherwise you're
going to be on a hiding to
315
00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:43,200
nothing.
Do you know?
316
00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:45,560
Do you know?
And something's only worth what
317
00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:48,720
somebody else is willing to pay
for us, not what you think is
318
00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:51,360
its value or.
Very true.
319
00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:55,120
Yeah, or, or the amount that it
took you to build it.
320
00:19:55,720 --> 00:20:00,160
Do you know, again, can be, can
be two very, two very different,
321
00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:03,640
different things.
So you go back to the thing of,
322
00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:05,760
well, what is the problem you're
solving?
323
00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:09,720
What, what problem does your
business actually solve?
324
00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:12,280
It's the old thing of you don't
sell a mattress, you sell a good
325
00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:15,400
night's sleep.
And it's, it's the same with
326
00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,960
ourselves.
Yes, technically we sell or in
327
00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:22,560
the tax credit.
Services, but actually what we
328
00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:27,280
sell is is compliance and Peace
of Mind with the revenue
329
00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:30,320
commissioners.
Do you know that's that's why
330
00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:35,000
companies are happy to to bring
us in ultimately one one way or
331
00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:38,160
another.
I think from a point of view as
332
00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:42,200
well as is I think a lot of
founders can can struggle with
333
00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:44,000
delegation.
I, I know I struggle with
334
00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:49,240
delegation myself at times as
well, but just at the point
335
00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,760
where we feel ourselves, where
you feel yourself retracting and
336
00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:55,720
when the pressure comes on and
almost kind of closing in and
337
00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:57,640
taking everything all on
yourself.
338
00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,160
Actually, that's the time when
we ironically need to open
339
00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:04,800
ourselves up and and start to
start to delegate and trust
340
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:09,360
those around us instead.
Yeah, and I fully agree.
341
00:21:09,360 --> 00:21:12,920
I think it's a, it's a very
difficult skill to get good at,
342
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,840
but it's also increasingly
important as the company grows.
343
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:18,760
It's, uh, well, I think, I think
you're right as well.
344
00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:21,000
They're like, you're not just
selling our new tax credits.
345
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:22,680
Like you're selling a lot of
things.
346
00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:26,320
You're selling profitability and
a positive year and, uh, you
347
00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:27,800
know, better growth for the
companies.
348
00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:30,600
There's a lot of things I think
it trickles down to and feeds
349
00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:33,640
into if you can get it right.
And before we finish up there,
350
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:37,640
if you'd one key piece of a key
piece of advice to share on fun
351
00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:44,320
in a startup, what would it be?
Umm, I think, I think I'd go
352
00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:51,000
back to that point of don't,
don't, don't kind of get caught
353
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:57,240
chasing kind of sparkly sparkly
funding or or kind of sparkly
354
00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:01,360
money.
Generally, if something is seems
355
00:22:01,360 --> 00:22:04,960
too good to be true, it often
ends up being that case.
356
00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:08,720
Do you know?
The easier it is to access quite
357
00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:12,760
often the more problems it'll
end up causing you in in the
358
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:14,120
long run.
Do you know?
359
00:22:14,120 --> 00:22:18,440
So I'd say I'd say exactly that.
Don't, don't, don't look to
360
00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:22,240
access either grant funding or
any kind of source of funding
361
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:26,480
that could could end up acting
as a false economy and bite new
362
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:28,400
bite new in the medium to long
term.
363
00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:33,280
Yeah, I think that's a very good
point that I think most founders
364
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:35,920
learn the hard way.
Dara, thanks so much for coming
365
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:37,440
on the podcast.
That was a really great
366
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:40,760
conversation.
I think Late in Ireland is doing
367
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:44,160
great work and I'm excited to
see where it goes over the
368
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:46,800
coming years.
Fantastic.
369
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,600
Thanks very much, Phillip.
My pleasure, Derek.
370
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:53,080
Hi.
Thanks for listening to this
371
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:55,960
book's episode of the Founders
and Funding podcast.
372
00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:58,640
If you'd like to be a guest or
have a guest suggestion, please
373
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:00,440
get in touch.
Thank you.