Ep 17 - Roger Courtney - Founder & CEO of Sunstone

0:01 Hi, welcome to the Founders and funding podcast. I'm your host, Philip Smith. On the podcast, I'll be interviewing founders, investors, startup advisors on how to fund the journey of your startup and some tips and advice they have for you along the way. This podcast is sponsored by Perfectly Technologies and Laden. Enjoy the episode. Hi Roger, welcome to the Founders and Funding podcasts. Thank you very much for having me. It's my pleasure to have you on, uh, Roger, just start us off, talk to me about your company and your role. Sure. Uh, I'm Roger. I founded a company called Sunstone, Sunstone Technologies Limited to give it its, uh, full title. Uh, Sunstone is a data inference company and what we've done is we have reclassified the entire Irish economy by replacing something called NACE codes.

0:49 And this allows us to show B to B companies far larger markets than they were previously able to see. So we're actually just accelerating business development on behalf of B to B clients by using, uh, very, very strong and very detailed data. Sets Fantastic. And what does an average data look like right now for you? Well, I've actually, I've recently been blessed with a fantastic new hire. I was actually running most of my own admin back office for quite some time there, a little over a year actually. And I finally just got a fantastic back office person called Cassia who's joined the team recently and she's actually free of a huge amount of my time. So what I'm actually doing is all of the stuff that I probably should have been doing over the prior 12 months and then pondering what I should be doing next. So that yeah, I know it's it is funny that that found in journey where your your responsibilities and your day-to-day changes. I think as you make new hires and adding to the team. Hmm, absolutely.

1:40 And I think, you know, there's a sort of an idea that I was introduced to recently called a minimum viable business. And it goes right alongside the minimum viable product. Because obviously, you know, an idea is an idea, a product, a product, but something can only get as far as the structures that can be built around it. So actually a minimum viable business is also a very, very important way to look at what a business should be focusing its efforts on. You know, there's the idea, but there's the actual doing of the thing itself, the business. Yeah, I really like that. I think that's where a lot of syrups and businesses, they kind of they, they, they focus on that kind of problem market fish and and rightly so. But they don't really always take a step back and look at the full business. And is it actually, you know, what is it profit or is it profitable enough for what does the future look like for us and how can it be more viable as a business?

2:24 I think that's a. That's a really good point. Well, I think what, what's really interesting is that I suppose, again, I don't want to be jumping into, into subjects that we'll get into later on, but what I really enjoy at the moment is actually spending time, uh, thinking about strategic before tactical. And I think a huge part of the problem in, in start-ups is that there's so much tactical to be done that, you know, the day-to-day can be consumed. And, and, and I think the phrase that a, a former colleague of mine used to use was busy fools. And the problem with being a busy fool is that you think you're actually making progress, but what you're really doing is just completing tasks. So what I think the, the recent hire of the admin being taken from me has really given me a chance to do if I'm, if I'm not being flippant or glib, is actually to really think about the business and our direction as we move forward.

3:07 And as we begin that scaling process, which, you know, now that we're sort of out of the start up phase, uh, you know, our, your eyes lift from your feet, they look at the horizon. You realize that there's an awful lot to be done between now and then, and I think getting the strategic view right before because the tactical is always informed by the strategic. So if you have your strategic bit right, the tactical will become obvious. Yeah, I think that's a really good point. Uh, I've spoken a lot of founders who do get lost in kind of tasks and day to days, but, but not really looking at the kind of real critical, uh, work that needs to be done and to look at the funding journey a bit for Sunstone, How has your company funded its journey to days? Uh, very lucky to be primarily funded by friends and family who then match funded, uh, an Enterprise Ireland HPSU, uh, application.

3:55 So we were accepted into the HPSU program in November 2024 as part of that intake. And that then I think one of the, the things that, that gave us was a certain amount of credibility. And we actually, we, we drew down a sort of a tranche one, uh, of, of the full investment, which was 250K match funding, so 500 total. And the idea was that as we, we much funded that we got a trance from Enterprise Ireland. We became part of the program that actually gave us credibility and a certain amount of kudos in the market. So that when I was speaking with people, you know, there was certainly a, a small element where people would be like, OK, so he, I think he's not a complete idiot. That's good news. So, you know, it, it came with a certain amount of credibility, which allowed for the next phase to be completed. If I'm being honest, I think I jumped in too high up the chain.

4:36 I probably should have engaged with my local enterprise office 1st, but my background was a little bit unusual because I was actually coming from a trading business and building a spin out because I'd taken over a data company in 2021 from where I built Sunstone and so I was actually running a trading business while pivoting to a start up. So I suppose my my journey was unusual and the HPSU was the entry point from my particular journey. But for anyone else, I'd very much recommend to start lower down the the funding chain at the local enterprise office level because I never did and it would have been easier. Yeah. It's just it's that kind of stepping stone of of maybe getting the feasibility of primary grants and working your way up to to perhaps the HOSU. But it certainly is. It's a really great vote of confidence. I think having Enterprise Ireland back your start up and it's a really good signal to the market and to companies looking to work for you.

5:22 So it worked. Very well, I'll have to jump across you there very quickly. One of the things that I think, uh, Enterprise Ireland and the HBSU program gave me that was really probably the most valuable was actually the defending, uh, offenders, uh, forum, which is their, their sort of boot camp for, for companies that are looking to scale. So that actually was sort of AI suppose an MBA in a box almost, you know, select strategies of the company that run off on behalf of Enterprise Ireland for, for my year end this year and have been for quite some time, I believe. And they, they deliver a terrific program, Paul and Emer. And what you get by the time you come out of it is it would be incredibly unlikely that you'd be faced with the situation as a young start up or entrepreneur that you wouldn't have a frame of reference or some kind of a structure or system with which to address the problem.

6:05 And that kind of training is absolutely invaluable. So it's not actually for me as much about the funding. What really gave me massive value from Enterprise Ireland was the Fenders foreign program. That's fantastic. Yeah, it's, I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of, I think MBA grudges and things like that, that, you know, and, and those programs do cover great, uh, insights into managing the business and certain aspects of it. But I think courses or programs like the one you described, when they're, uh, in the Enterprise Ireland, I think they are critical to really get insights into the actual, uh, problems and solutions you'll, that you'll face on a day-to-day basis. Absolutely. And it gives you such a tremendous network. Umm, so within the intake from last year, which kind of runs calendar year sort of March through to about October, November, the founder of the year was actually one of my, my group Mark from Nuribel, fantastic founder.

6:57 And what I discovered was that the small group format, which included Mark and, and a few other fantastic people, it gave us a wonderful network within which we had compatriots who were also going through a lot of the same challenges. And so one of the things that I've, you know, heard an awful lot is that it's a very, very lonely journey to go and become an entrepreneur. And you know, you have all these YouTube kind of podcast videos talking about the lonely hour and all that good stuff. But one of the things that I found about the Founders Forum and my group was coached by a fantastic guy called Sean Baker founded Iona Technologies. And it provided such a a sort of a forgiving environment within which you could be free to be kind of vulnerable, to expose your mistakes and to have a a room full of very talented and very intelligent people helping you all together at the same time. It was a pretty special experience. Yeah.

7:48 I think that uh, it certainly helps in in your journey and to look I suppose a bit towards more of a general point of the funding. What do you think is the best way to fund a startups journey in your opinion? I think that's a very difficult question because I think the sheer variety of what types of businesses require, what types of funding is, is so broad. What I'll say is that I was incredibly lucky coming from a private equity background. I had a bit of a network on myself and I've gotten here with just Enterprise Island and friends and family. So I didn't mean to bring in institutional funding. And we've actually, we're, we're profitable for Q1. So we're actually we're, you know, the nose of the plane is now up, which is fabulous. We got here without institutional funding and I think having a backer who can open doors is hugely important. I think some kind of a mentor or somebody that you can kind of go to is really important.

8:39 In fact, my chairman early in the process, a gentleman called Billy Kelly, he's actually just arranged for a Sunstone to become the data partner, the official data partner for the Ukraine Ireland Chamber of Commerce, which has just been set up on rustic leadership of Pavlo, who hosts the organization in DLA Piper's offices on Dawson St. Umm. So Billy was actually kind of working with me as a, as a coach and helping me to understand what it was that are not necessarily what it was I, I was doing, but how I should react to things and how to address certain issues. And to have somebody that you can go to that you trust, like with the Founders Forum program, where you can be vulnerable and you can be helpful to others.

9:21 And actually, you know, it, it feels kind of wonderful when you, you know, make some kind of contribution that helps somebody else on their journey. You know, givers gain and all that. But I find that if you're going to go out and do something crazy like this, having somebody who was a little bit seasoned a little further along the road than you, who can see the pitfalls is a massively important thing to have. And having that kind of support and that kind of guidance is absolutely invaluable. Yeah, couldn't agree more. And to look at the founding team a bit, Roger, like what? What skills do you think new founders should possess? My, my wife credits my primary talent as grit, just inability. I don't really have a lot of skills. So what, what I think, you know, it's going to be harder than you think.

10:09 It's going to be more painful than you think. And I think the, the, the thing that really came to that I came to realize is that growth, uh, feels like grief. It's a, it's a quite a painful process becoming what you're trying to become. And I think the more openly you can do it and the more you can share that journey with people, the more support you're going to find. In fact, uh, another fantastic guy, Andrew Casey, uh, founded a brilliant marketing agency called Headcase. I met him at a rugby lunch. We were former school friends, haven't seen each other since school. And at the point in time when the rugby lunch was on February 25, I was just, I was going through one of those periods of time that you get as a founder when everything hurts. And he just shared some really gentle, kind observations about how his journey kind of related back and how looking back on that, you know, made him feel kind of more resilient now that he's passed it. And just even giving the framework or even the sense of this is a thing that exists in a continuum or timeline, just contextualizing that really helps. And I think to have people around you who can, you know, provide you with that shoulder to lean on every now and again again, absolutely essential for a founder's journey. Yeah, I I agree.

11:19 But it's not surprising because I think the founders journey is such, it can be such a strange one. It can be quite complex, a lot of different, we'll say challenges involved in that and a lot of different areas you have to have knowledge about from whether it's financial or legal or going to market. So I think there's certainly a lot of challenges involved and having someone with a bit of experience there can be a huge help. How can companies attract investors effectively, do you think? I think we live in a marketplace of ideas now, and I think the strength of the idea is the thing that will determine success as an executed product. Obviously, every business is an idea and an execution.

12:00 You can't have one without the other. And one of my favorite things from back in my private equity days was when people would say, oh, I've got a really good idea, but I'm not going to tell you what it is the one thing. But I used to love just relating to them. So I literally just said mate I don't care. Anyone who has enough gumption to get an idea that you think is amazing off the ground, they probably have their own. And even if they don't, the execution is actually a far more important part. But now the idea is actually the more important part because of AI, because if you look at, for example, traditional career paths, another fantastic founder, you know, the the Fox brothers who founded Johnson Hannah, they're coming by the legal industry, shouted to Alex, Actually broke my aunt on a cricket match a couple years back. The funny thing is when you have companies that are innovating and seeing big baggy problems that can be attacked with efficiencies and those efficiencies can be enabled by AI, we're going to see a period of massive change in turbulence. And in a period of massive change in turbulence, the idea and the value of the idea inherent in itself will be the thing that determines success.

13:07 So for example, Sunstone, the entire idea of Sunstone is what could you what if you could see the actual market and the actual economy as it actually is properly? Because right now nobody can. The only people who have done it is Sunstone. So we've, you know, reordered the entire Irish economy. So if anyone goes to an any other data company and says, show me all the engineering firms, they won't be able to because they won't capture the firms that are miscal or mis aligned within the economy. But I think what's really interesting is that the idea itself is just what if we could get to the truth of something? What if we get the actual answer? How many companies are actually trading in the Irish economy right now? And so if the idea is something as profound as a lot of legal is baggy and wasteful and rinse and repeat and pot boiler stuff, and you know, the Fox brothers come along and take a great big bite out of it with Johnson and Hannah, that's a natural progression of AI.

13:55 It's a second order effect. And the second order effects are going to be determined by the quality of ideas because execution will become easier with the enhancements enabled by AI. Yeah, I think that's a very insightful way to look at it because I've, I've seen the, the, the number of start-ups now that have been created with AI, it's, you know, at a ridiculous speed For me now, the easiest way to be successful is actually to have the best idea and the best business model that you can take advantage of it because, umm, the competition now is, uh, is just increasing at an exponential rate. If you had one key piece of advice to share on fun in a startup, what would it be? Roger? Well, I'm going to share a slightly adjacent piece of feedback, actually, that occurred to me. Umm, before just that I wanted to say from earlier was actually.

14:42 Please do. When you think your product is ready, your product is nowhere near ready. I've learned this very much to my detriment over the last sort of 1215 months where, you know, I, I thought we were marketing a product that was at MVP that was really genuinely kind of doing the things. But of course it, it had the stuff under the hood, it had the power, but it wasn't ready. And I think when you think you're ready, you're not ready. When you really think you're ready, you're not ready. When you're absolutely, positively surely sure that you're ready, probably still not ready. So keep going. And I think longevity is probably the key. If you can show those fantastic little moments along the way, your first commercial sale, you're pushing the bubble of the contract value of your company up for, you know, into uncharted territory for the first or second or third time. When you have 1/4 of growth, when you have, you know, a profitable month, these are all fantastic little waypoints to indicate the progress towards potential investors. I think we're only gets a bit of a bad rap in terms of Angel investors and the the lack thereof in this country. But I think if you were to pop on to LinkedIn and fax another shout out to Claire of ISIS Technologies, another one of my founders, foreign group actually has an Angel investor network in Northern Ireland focusing on female founders. And if you simply gone to LinkedIn, you'll find people who are motivated, who are interested, who are looking to help and support and invest.

16:05 And I just think that if you can keep track and tally and express and explain the trajectory and it's being very much in an upward direction using that grab bag odd basket of factors and show people your progress. People want to come along the journey. People want to support, people want to help. And I think actually Angel investors love seeing this and it makes them feel invested. We've just done something quite incredible, which is that having reordered the entire Irish economy, we've actually built a model of the economy based on Monsell's color wheel. And that idea was given to me by one of my Angel investors who was a professional artist. And she's an absolutely fantastic. She's actually an old shareholder because I have very good strategic discussions with her and the stuff that we discuss somehow permeates and feeds into what I do professionally.

16:57 So I think having having the ability to tell the story to show where you are along that journey will bring funders with you, you and they will help and push you to the next level. Also be very aware of, you know, microfinance lending, always very useful, grid finance, linked finance, that kind of stuff. You know, there are ways of, of, of attaining short term solutions. If you run into one of those scary months that you're trying to figure out what it is that you need to do to get to the 31st without, you know, falling over, you know, there are plenty of options out there now. And the market is proliferating as well, which is great news. Yeah, I think certainly it's it's getting better in Ireland for startups and the supports there for them. Roger, thanks so much for calling the podcast. It was really interesting to learn about Sunstone and your founder's journey.

17:44 Well, it was an absolute pleasure speaking with you and thank you very much for the time. Thanks, Roger. Hi. Thanks for listening to this week's episode of the Founders and Funding Podcast. If you like to be a guest, to have a guest suggestion, please get in touch. Thank you.