Ep 17 - Roger Courtney - Founder & CEO of Sunstone

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Hi, welcome to the Founders and
funding podcast.

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I'm your host, Philip Smith.
On the podcast, I'll be

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interviewing founders,
investors, startup advisors on

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how to fund the journey of your
startup and some tips and advice

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they have for you along the way.
This podcast is sponsored by

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Perfectly Technologies and
Laden.

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Enjoy the episode.
Hi Roger, welcome to the

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Founders and Funding podcasts.
Thank you very much for having

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me.
It's my pleasure to have you on,

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uh, Roger, just start us off,
talk to me about your company

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and your role.
Sure.

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Uh, I'm Roger.
I founded a company called

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Sunstone, Sunstone Technologies
Limited to give it its, uh, full

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title.
Uh, Sunstone is a data inference

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company and what we've done is
we have reclassified the entire

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Irish economy by replacing
something called NACE codes.

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And this allows us to show B to
B companies far larger markets

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than they were previously able
to see.

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So we're actually just
accelerating business

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development on behalf of B to B
clients by using, uh, very, very

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strong and very detailed data.
Sets Fantastic.

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And what does an average data
look like right now for you?

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Well, I've actually, I've
recently been blessed with a

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fantastic new hire.
I was actually running most of

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my own admin back office for
quite some time there, a little

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over a year actually.
And I finally just got a

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fantastic back office person
called Cassia who's joined the

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team recently and she's actually
free of a huge amount of my

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time.
So what I'm actually doing is

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all of the stuff that I probably
should have been doing over the

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prior 12 months and then
pondering what I should be doing

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next.
So that yeah, I know it's it is

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funny that that found in journey
where your your responsibilities

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and your day-to-day changes.
I think as you make new hires

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and adding to the team.
Hmm, absolutely.

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And I think, you know, there's a
sort of an idea that I was

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introduced to recently called a
minimum viable business.

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And it goes right alongside the
minimum viable product.

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Because obviously, you know, an
idea is an idea, a product, a

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product, but something can only
get as far as the structures

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that can be built around it.
So actually a minimum viable

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business is also a very, very
important way to look at what a

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business should be focusing its
efforts on.

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You know, there's the idea, but
there's the actual doing of the

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thing itself, the business.
Yeah, I really like that.

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I think that's where a lot of
syrups and businesses, they kind

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of they, they, they focus on
that kind of problem market fish

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and and rightly so.
But they don't really always

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take a step back and look at the
full business.

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And is it actually, you know,
what is it profit or is it

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profitable enough for what does
the future look like for us and

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how can it be more viable as a
business?

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I think that's a.
That's a really good point.

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Well, I think what, what's
really interesting is that I

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suppose, again, I don't want to
be jumping into, into subjects

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that we'll get into later on,
but what I really enjoy at the

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moment is actually spending
time, uh, thinking about

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strategic before tactical.
And I think a huge part of the

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problem in, in start-ups is that
there's so much tactical to be

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done that, you know, the
day-to-day can be consumed.

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And, and, and I think the phrase
that a, a former colleague of

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mine used to use was busy fools.
And the problem with being a

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busy fool is that you think
you're actually making progress,

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but what you're really doing is
just completing tasks.

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So what I think the, the recent
hire of the admin being taken

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from me has really given me a
chance to do if I'm, if I'm not

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being flippant or glib, is
actually to really think about

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the business and our direction
as we move forward.

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And as we begin that scaling
process, which, you know, now

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that we're sort of out of the
start up phase, uh, you know,

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our, your eyes lift from your
feet, they look at the horizon.

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You realize that there's an
awful lot to be done between now

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and then, and I think getting
the strategic view right before

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because the tactical is always
informed by the strategic.

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So if you have your strategic
bit right, the tactical will

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become obvious.
Yeah, I think that's a really

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good point.
Uh, I've spoken a lot of

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founders who do get lost in kind
of tasks and day to days, but,

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but not really looking at the
kind of real critical, uh, work

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that needs to be done and to
look at the funding journey a

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bit for Sunstone, How has your
company funded its journey to

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days?
Uh, very lucky to be primarily

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funded by friends and family who
then match funded, uh, an

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Enterprise Ireland HPSU, uh,
application.

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So we were accepted into the
HPSU program in November 2024 as

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part of that intake.
And that then I think one of

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the, the things that, that gave
us was a certain amount of

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credibility.
And we actually, we, we drew

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down a sort of a tranche one,
uh, of, of the full investment,

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which was 250K match funding, so
500 total.

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And the idea was that as we, we
much funded that we got a trance

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from Enterprise Ireland.
We became part of the program

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that actually gave us
credibility and a certain amount

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of kudos in the market.
So that when I was speaking with

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people, you know, there was
certainly a, a small element

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where people would be like, OK,
so he, I think he's not a

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complete idiot.
That's good news.

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So, you know, it, it came with a
certain amount of credibility,

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which allowed for the next phase
to be completed.

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If I'm being honest, I think I
jumped in too high up the chain.

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I probably should have engaged
with my local enterprise office

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1st, but my background was a
little bit unusual because I was

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actually coming from a trading
business and building a spin out

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because I'd taken over a data
company in 2021 from where I

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built Sunstone and so I was
actually running a trading

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business while pivoting to a
start up.

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So I suppose my my journey was
unusual and the HPSU was the

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entry point from my particular
journey.

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But for anyone else, I'd very
much recommend to start lower

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down the the funding chain at
the local enterprise office

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level because I never did and it
would have been easier.

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Yeah.
It's just it's that kind of

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stepping stone of of maybe
getting the feasibility of

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primary grants and working your
way up to to perhaps the HOSU.

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But it certainly is.
It's a really great vote of

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confidence.
I think having Enterprise

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Ireland back your start up and
it's a really good signal to the

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market and to companies looking
to work for you.

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So it worked.
Very well, I'll have to jump

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across you there very quickly.
One of the things that I think,

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uh, Enterprise Ireland and the
HBSU program gave me that was

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really probably the most
valuable was actually the

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defending, uh, offenders, uh,
forum, which is their, their

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sort of boot camp for, for
companies that are looking to

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scale.
So that actually was sort of AI

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suppose an MBA in a box almost,
you know, select strategies of

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the company that run off on
behalf of Enterprise Ireland

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for, for my year end this year
and have been for quite some

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time, I believe.
And they, they deliver a

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terrific program, Paul and Emer.
And what you get by the time you

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come out of it is it would be
incredibly unlikely that you'd

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be faced with the situation as a
young start up or entrepreneur

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that you wouldn't have a frame
of reference or some kind of a

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structure or system with which
to address the problem.

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And that kind of training is
absolutely invaluable.

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So it's not actually for me as
much about the funding.

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What really gave me massive
value from Enterprise Ireland

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was the Fenders foreign program.
That's fantastic.

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Yeah, it's, I think there's a
lot of, there's a lot of, I

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think MBA grudges and things
like that, that, you know, and,

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and those programs do cover
great, uh, insights into

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managing the business and
certain aspects of it.

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But I think courses or programs
like the one you described, when

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they're, uh, in the Enterprise
Ireland, I think they are

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critical to really get insights
into the actual, uh, problems

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and solutions you'll, that
you'll face on a day-to-day

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basis.
Absolutely.

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And it gives you such a
tremendous network.

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Umm, so within the intake from
last year, which kind of runs

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calendar year sort of March
through to about October,

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November, the founder of the
year was actually one of my, my

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group Mark from Nuribel,
fantastic founder.

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And what I discovered was that
the small group format, which

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included Mark and, and a few
other fantastic people, it gave

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us a wonderful network within
which we had compatriots who

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were also going through a lot of
the same challenges.

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And so one of the things that
I've, you know, heard an awful

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lot is that it's a very, very
lonely journey to go and become

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an entrepreneur.
And you know, you have all these

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YouTube kind of podcast videos
talking about the lonely hour

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and all that good stuff.
But one of the things that I

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found about the Founders Forum
and my group was coached by a

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fantastic guy called Sean Baker
founded Iona Technologies.

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And it provided such a a sort of
a forgiving environment within

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which you could be free to be
kind of vulnerable, to expose

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your mistakes and to have a a
room full of very talented and

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very intelligent people helping
you all together at the same

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time.
It was a pretty special

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experience.
Yeah.

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I think that uh, it certainly
helps in in your journey and to

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look I suppose a bit towards
more of a general point of the

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funding.
What do you think is the best

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way to fund a startups journey
in your opinion?

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I think that's a very difficult
question because I think the

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sheer variety of what types of
businesses require, what types

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of funding is, is so broad.
What I'll say is that I was

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incredibly lucky coming from a
private equity background.

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I had a bit of a network on
myself and I've gotten here with

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just Enterprise Island and
friends and family.

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So I didn't mean to bring in
institutional funding.

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And we've actually, we're, we're
profitable for Q1.

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So we're actually we're, you
know, the nose of the plane is

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now up, which is fabulous.
We got here without

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institutional funding and I
think having a backer who can

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open doors is hugely important.
I think some kind of a mentor or

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somebody that you can kind of go
to is really important.

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In fact, my chairman early in
the process, a gentleman called

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Billy Kelly, he's actually just
arranged for a Sunstone to

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become the data partner, the
official data partner for the

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Ukraine Ireland Chamber of
Commerce, which has just been

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set up on rustic leadership of
Pavlo, who hosts the

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organization in DLA Piper's
offices on Dawson St.

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Umm.
So Billy was actually kind of

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working with me as a, as a coach
and helping me to understand

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what it was that are not
necessarily what it was I, I was

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doing, but how I should react to
things and how to address

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certain issues.
And to have somebody that you

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can go to that you trust, like
with the Founders Forum program,

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where you can be vulnerable and
you can be helpful to others.

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And actually, you know, it, it
feels kind of wonderful when

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you, you know, make some kind of
contribution that helps somebody

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else on their journey.
You know, givers gain and all

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that.
But I find that if you're going

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to go out and do something crazy
like this, having somebody who

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was a little bit seasoned a
little further along the road

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than you, who can see the
pitfalls is a massively

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important thing to have.
And having that kind of support

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and that kind of guidance is
absolutely invaluable.

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Yeah, couldn't agree more.
And to look at the founding team

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a bit, Roger, like what?
What skills do you think new

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founders should possess?
My, my wife credits my primary

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talent as grit, just inability.
I don't really have a lot of

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skills.
So what, what I think, you know,

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it's going to be harder than you
think.

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It's going to be more painful
than you think.

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And I think the, the, the thing
that really came to that I came

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to realize is that growth, uh,
feels like grief.

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It's a, it's a quite a painful
process becoming what you're

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trying to become.
And I think the more openly you

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can do it and the more you can
share that journey with people,

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the more support you're going to
find.

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In fact, uh, another fantastic
guy, Andrew Casey, uh, founded a

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brilliant marketing agency
called Headcase.

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I met him at a rugby lunch.
We were former school friends,

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haven't seen each other since
school.

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And at the point in time when
the rugby lunch was on February

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25, I was just, I was going
through one of those periods of

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time that you get as a founder
when everything hurts.

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And he just shared some really
gentle, kind observations about

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how his journey kind of related
back and how looking back on

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that, you know, made him feel
kind of more resilient now that

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he's passed it.
And just even giving the

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framework or even the sense of
this is a thing that exists in a

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continuum or timeline, just
contextualizing that really

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helps.
And I think to have people

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around you who can, you know,
provide you with that shoulder

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to lean on every now and again
again, absolutely essential for

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a founder's journey.
Yeah, I I agree.

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But it's not surprising because
I think the founders journey is

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such, it can be such a strange
one.

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It can be quite complex, a lot
of different, we'll say

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challenges involved in that and
a lot of different areas you

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have to have knowledge about
from whether it's financial or

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legal or going to market.
So I think there's certainly a

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lot of challenges involved and
having someone with a bit of

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experience there can be a huge
help.

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How can companies attract
investors effectively, do you

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think?
I think we live in a marketplace

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of ideas now, and I think the
strength of the idea is the

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thing that will determine
success as an executed product.

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Obviously, every business is an
idea and an execution.

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You can't have one without the
other.

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And one of my favorite things
from back in my private equity

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days was when people would say,
oh, I've got a really good idea,

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but I'm not going to tell you
what it is the one thing.

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But I used to love just relating
to them.

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So I literally just said mate I
don't care.

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Anyone who has enough gumption
to get an idea that you think is

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amazing off the ground, they
probably have their own.

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And even if they don't, the
execution is actually a far more

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important part.
But now the idea is actually the

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more important part because of
AI, because if you look at, for

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example, traditional career
paths, another fantastic

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founder, you know, the the Fox
brothers who founded Johnson

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Hannah, they're coming by the
legal industry, shouted to Alex,

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Actually broke my aunt on a
cricket match a couple years

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back.
The funny thing is when you have

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companies that are innovating
and seeing big baggy problems

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that can be attacked with
efficiencies and those

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efficiencies can be enabled by
AI, we're going to see a period

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of massive change in turbulence.
And in a period of massive

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change in turbulence, the idea
and the value of the idea

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inherent in itself will be the
thing that determines success.

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So for example, Sunstone, the
entire idea of Sunstone is what

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could you what if you could see
the actual market and the actual

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economy as it actually is
properly?

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Because right now nobody can.
The only people who have done it

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is Sunstone.
So we've, you know, reordered

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the entire Irish economy.
So if anyone goes to an any

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other data company and says,
show me all the engineering

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firms, they won't be able to
because they won't capture the

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firms that are miscal or mis
aligned within the economy.

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But I think what's really
interesting is that the idea

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itself is just what if we could
get to the truth of something?

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What if we get the actual
answer?

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How many companies are actually
trading in the Irish economy

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right now?
And so if the idea is something

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as profound as a lot of legal is
baggy and wasteful and rinse and

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repeat and pot boiler stuff, and
you know, the Fox brothers come

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along and take a great big bite
out of it with Johnson and

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Hannah, that's a natural
progression of AI.

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It's a second order effect.
And the second order effects are

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going to be determined by the
quality of ideas because

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execution will become easier
with the enhancements enabled by

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AI.
Yeah, I think that's a very

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insightful way to look at it
because I've, I've seen the,

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the, the number of start-ups now
that have been created with AI,

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it's, you know, at a ridiculous
speed For me now, the easiest

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way to be successful is actually
to have the best idea and the

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best business model that you can
take advantage of it because,

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umm, the competition now is, uh,
is just increasing at an

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exponential rate.
If you had one key piece of

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advice to share on fun in a
startup, what would it be?

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00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,320
Roger?
Well, I'm going to share a

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slightly adjacent piece of
feedback, actually, that

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occurred to me.
Umm, before just that I wanted

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to say from earlier was
actually.

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Please do.
When you think your product is

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ready, your product is nowhere
near ready.

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I've learned this very much to
my detriment over the last sort

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of 1215 months where, you know,
I, I thought we were marketing a

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product that was at MVP that was
really genuinely kind of doing

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the things.
But of course it, it had the

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stuff under the hood, it had the
power, but it wasn't ready.

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And I think when you think
you're ready, you're not ready.

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When you really think you're
ready, you're not ready.

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When you're absolutely,
positively surely sure that

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you're ready, probably still not
ready.

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So keep going.
And I think longevity is

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probably the key.
If you can show those fantastic

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little moments along the way,
your first commercial sale,

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you're pushing the bubble of the
contract value of your company

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00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:28,440
up for, you know, into uncharted
territory for the first or

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00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:31,560
second or third time.
When you have 1/4 of growth,

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when you have, you know, a
profitable month, these are all

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fantastic little waypoints to
indicate the progress towards

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potential investors.
I think we're only gets a bit of

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a bad rap in terms of Angel
investors and the the lack

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00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:47,800
thereof in this country.
But I think if you were to pop

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00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:52,280
on to LinkedIn and fax another
shout out to Claire of ISIS

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Technologies, another one of my
founders, foreign group actually

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00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:58,280
has an Angel investor network in
Northern Ireland focusing on

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00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:00,280
female founders.
And if you simply gone to

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LinkedIn, you'll find people who
are motivated, who are

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00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:04,480
interested, who are looking to
help and support and invest.

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And I just think that if you can
keep track and tally and express

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00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:12,680
and explain the trajectory and
it's being very much in an

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00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:18,880
upward direction using that grab
bag odd basket of factors and

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00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:22,200
show people your progress.
People want to come along the

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00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:23,640
journey.
People want to support, people

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want to help.
And I think actually Angel

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00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:29,520
investors love seeing this and
it makes them feel invested.

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We've just done something quite
incredible, which is that having

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reordered the entire Irish
economy, we've actually built a

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00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:39,440
model of the economy based on
Monsell's color wheel.

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00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:42,440
And that idea was given to me by
one of my Angel investors who

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00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:44,800
was a professional artist.
And she's an absolutely

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fantastic.
She's actually an old

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00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:50,880
shareholder because I have very
good strategic discussions with

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00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:55,200
her and the stuff that we
discuss somehow permeates and

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00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:56,760
feeds into what I do
professionally.

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So I think having having the
ability to tell the story to

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00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:04,839
show where you are along that
journey will bring funders with

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00:17:04,839 --> 00:17:07,760
you, you and they will help and
push you to the next level.

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00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:12,359
Also be very aware of, you know,
microfinance lending, always

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00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:14,599
very useful, grid finance,
linked finance, that kind of

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00:17:14,599 --> 00:17:16,240
stuff.
You know, there are ways of, of,

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00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:17,960
of attaining short term
solutions.

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00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:20,920
If you run into one of those
scary months that you're trying

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00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:22,920
to figure out what it is that
you need to do to get to the

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00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:26,520
31st without, you know, falling
over, you know, there are plenty

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00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:28,400
of options out there now.
And the market is proliferating

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00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:32,800
as well, which is great news.
Yeah, I think certainly it's

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00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:35,800
it's getting better in Ireland
for startups and the supports

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00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:37,480
there for them.
Roger, thanks so much for

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00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:40,480
calling the podcast.
It was really interesting to

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00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:43,000
learn about Sunstone and your
founder's journey.

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00:17:44,360 --> 00:17:45,960
Well, it was an absolute
pleasure speaking with you and

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00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:46,840
thank you very much for the
time.

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00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:54,360
Thanks, Roger.
Hi.

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00:17:54,360 --> 00:17:57,040
Thanks for listening to this
week's episode of the Founders

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00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:59,520
and Funding Podcast.
If you like to be a guest, to

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00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:01,640
have a guest suggestion, please
get in touch.

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00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:02,680
Thank you.