April 8, 2026
Ep 18 - Richard Blythman - Founder & CEO of Naptha AI
In this episode of the Founders & Funding Podcast, Philip Smith speaks with Richard Blythman, Founder & CEO of Naptha AI.
Richard shares his journey building Naptha AI, from predicting the rise of AI agents before MCP was even mainstream, to the hard lessons of fundraising, pivoting, and finding product-market fit in one of the fastest-moving spaces in tech. They discuss what it really takes to build in AI, why the old rules of startups are changing fast, and how founders need to think differently to stay relevant.
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Hi, welcome to the Founders and
Funding podcast.
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I'm your host, Philip Smith.
On the podcast, I'll be
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interviewing founders,
investors, startup advisors on
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how to fund the journey of your
startup and some tips and advice
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they have for you along the way.
This podcast is sponsored by
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Perfect Technologies and Laden.
Enjoy the episode.
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Richard, welcome to the Founders
and Funding podcast.
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Thank you so much.
It's great to be here.
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Well, it's, it's my pleasure to
have you on.
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To be honest, uh, Richard, to
shut us off, just tell me about
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your company and your role.
Yes, I'm, I'm Richard, I'm the
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CEO and founder of Napa AI.
We are an AI company and we
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fundraised, uh, almost two years
ago now on this vision that we
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had for the Internet of agents.
And bear in mind, this was about
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a year before MCP was released
by Anthropic.
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So we, we had something similar
to them, which was like an MCP
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platform.
We thought, you know, there were
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going to be tons of these agents
running on different servers, on
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different devices or cooperating
across the network and as part
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of organizations.
That's really interesting.
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That's that that actually seems
it's not, you know, in terms of
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actual life, it's not a very
long time ago, but it seems like
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a kind of an eternity, a goal
from this world of AI.
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You know, thinking of everything
that happened in the last two
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years between charge of G and
Claude and all the developments
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and releases and changes and new
companies, it's, it seems like
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such a long time ago.
Yeah, yeah, it really does.
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Like everything changes so fast.
It's been, it's been a whirlwind
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of two years and I don't think
it's slowing down anytime soon.
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Yeah, I both love and hate it's,
it's really good to use the
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tools, but it's also very
frustrating trying to keep up
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with, you know, every time I
kind of master 1 to get used to
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it, then something else releases
and that's better and you have
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to change over here.
But you know, that's part of the
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journey, I suppose.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
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And it's a lot of fun.
It's exhausting at the same
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time.
Yeah, I can imagine.
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And and what does an average day
look like right now?
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So at the moment we're, we're
just starting to move into sales
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mode.
I guess previously we were doing
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a lot of problem discovery,
which looked more like, you
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know, user research, a lot of
user interviews, that sort of
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thing.
Because we hadn't, you know,
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found a problem that was, you
know, a priority for people to
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solve.
And then after that, once we'd
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found a problem, we started
doing product discovery to, to
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figure out solutions and, you
know, doing tests with users and
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that sort of thing.
And neither the problem nor the
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solution or the, the bottleneck
anymore.
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And so about 3 weeks ago, we
actually just started running
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sales prints week by week where,
you know, we change our
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hypothesis somewhat.
The ICP is like the person that,
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you know, we want to sell to
what the, what the price is,
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what we're actually selling
them, what the value we're
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providing is.
And we try to talk to or make
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you know about 10 different
pictures each week and then
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refine the hypothesis until we
start closing deals.
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That's really interesting.
I think I'm always, whenever
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you're a founder talking about,
you know, they're focusing on
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sales, I always think that's a
company that's moving in the
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right direction, but also
innovating.
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Because I think if you're
focusing on sales, you're,
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you're trying to make the
product better for the sales,
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you're trying to focus on growth
and innovation.
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So I, I think it's always the,
it's refreshing.
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I think the probably the best
area to focus on.
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Yeah.
I think, like, I don't know if
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this is useful, but one of the
previous mistakes that I made
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was trying to run sales with
something that wasn't really
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solving a top priority problem.
So we've always broadly been
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building on top of this like
similar infrastructure, which is
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like the Internet of agents,
agents running everywhere, MCP
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platforms, all that sort of
stuff.
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Yeah.
But we've been trying to figure
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out like use cases for that for
the last year or so.
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And one of the previous areas
that we wanted to apply this to
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was for like developer on
boarding.
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We're trying to sell to
developer tool companies and use
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our technology like agents to
help users on board and, you
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know, get customer support and
all that sort of stuff.
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And actually like the mistake
that we made there was we, we
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kind of like started off with a
solution and then tried to work
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backwards to a problem.
And then we spent, you know,
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months and months trying to sell
this and close design partners
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and we really just couldn't get
across the line.
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And my, my conclusion about what
happened was that we didn't do
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the problem discovery and the
product discovery well enough
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before and we moved into sales
mode too soon.
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And so that's actually a big
change of what we did this time.
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We, we did extensive problem
discovery, solution discovery.
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And now just coming into that
sales cycle, it's already clear
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that there's a lot less friction
than than what we had before.
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You know, we're going through
vendor approval with some
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companies and that sort of
thing.
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So yeah, I think doing sales at
the right time with the right
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problem and the right products
is, uh, is the hard part almost.
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Yeah, I think, and this probably
sounds strange to some people,
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but I think when you're actually
just busy and the calls are
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being booked and you're doing
the sales calls and you're
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closing deals and you're like,
and, and maybe they're 12 hour
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days, maybe they're long tough
days.
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But it it, to me anyway, my
experience, it feels lighter
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than, you know, kind of when
you're trying to find the
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product market fate, you're
trying to find the problem,
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you're trying to find the
solution that for me, my own
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experience caused a lot of
sleepless nights because, you
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know, there's an assurance at
least when you're busy, that
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you're moving in the right
direction and it's clicking
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where, you know, when it's not
quite clicking, there's a stress
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of how can we make this work?
So yeah, I've been there.
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Yeah, yeah, I'm still in that
kind of complex maze trying to
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navigate us.
Maybe there's a little bit more
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life that I can see than before.
I think we're making progress,
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but I I know exactly what you
mean.
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Well, I think I'll, I think to
be fair with an update, I think
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it already looks so impressive.
And you know, I think that's
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the, that's the great thing.
I think it's, it's kind of the,
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for me, the kind of the pro and
the con of the, of, of AI that
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you can, you can, you can create
something that's so incredible
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and impressive.
But as you said, it is, it's
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trying to find the big enough
problem for that that people
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actually want to stick around,
use it over and over again and
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spend the time learning how to
use it to give them feedback to
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improve it.
And I think AI is kind of, it's
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both helped and hindered that
because AI can do so much.
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But then it's like what we
actually get the AI to do, you
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know?
Yeah, for sure.
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Umm, the, the, it's like it's,
it's so competitive, the space
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at the moment.
I, I mean, there's a lot of
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different ways that you can
approach, you know, figuring out
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what to build.
I guess I'm like, one thing that
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you see a lot happening is
people will focus on a
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particular domain, whether
that's like construction or even
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like, you know, plumbing or
Craftsman or, or something like
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that.
And then start building an AI
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solution to help these people in
their like day-to-day jobs.
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And that's actually like
something that is, is quite
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successful.
I guess like one thing that we
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learned from, you know, being
more towards like the
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infrastructure side and dev tool
side is that, you know, when
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you're building something more
horizontal than vertical, it's
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like super competitive.
And I guess that's a learning
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that we've we've made over time
and like everything just moves
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crazy fast, like we were saying
as well.
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And also, are you competing with
Anthropic and open AI?
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And so a lot of figuring a lot
of this stuff out is a is a huge
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part of the battle in my
opinion.
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Yeah, I know.
I completely agree.
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Like I, and I don't think that's
been talked about enough, you
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know, really about AI because
it's for startups.
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It's just, there's just, there's
such an endless, umm, change in
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AI, but also in the kind of
different niches that have been
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created and, and the kind of
what those companies could look
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like.
And they try not to compete with
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the likes of, you know, Tropic
or open AI, but also trying to
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create your own, uh, space and
niche that that works to, to, to
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look more closely at the
company's, uh, journey.
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How has it funded it?
It's a journey to date.
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Yeah, so my life journey in, in
fundraising has been relatively
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long. 1, I actually, when I came
out of college, when I finished
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my PhD in 2017, I started
looking for, for start up
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funding straight away.
And the first thing I knew was
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I, I just come from academia.
So I actually tried to use that
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Ave. that I, that I knew
initially.
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And so went more after like
commercialization funding, which
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you know, means that you need to
move into the university to, you
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know, research and develop the,
the technology there.
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Yeah, that was just such a slow
process.
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It took, we were 18 months in
and we got rejected for like the
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third or fourth time by the
review panel, all of whom have
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to say yes.
And it was at that point I
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thought there just has to be a
faster way than this.
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That funding actually came in
after two years.
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We, we were trying to bring in
300K, but by that time I was
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sort of handing off to someone
else.
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And that, that startups actually
still going, they're still,
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they're in the process of
spinning out from the, the
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university and fundraising.
Last time I heard they're called
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Kinema.
So that was kind of my first, my
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first lesson in fundraising, I
guess you could say.
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And then I started a new startup
that was called Algevera.
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And we were trying to bootstrap
the idea there was we would
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spend about half of our time
bootstrapping, you know, doing
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consultancy for different
organizations and the other half
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trying to, to fundraise.
And the sort of consultancy work
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that we did was building out AI
workflows, a lot of like LLM
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workflows and that sort of stuff
like Lang chain had just come
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out.
We were building a lot of these
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solutions for, for different
companies.
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And so we managed to grow the
team to about 6 people fully
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bootstrapped.
But I think the, it was, it was
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a distraction in terms of
fundraising and we never
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actually managed to, to
fundraise based on that.
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We had maybe like 2-2 different
attempts.
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I was also like quite an
experienced at fundraising at
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that time and made a lot of
mistakes, like, you know, kept
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the round up for six months and
didn't make enough of a campaign
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and all this sort of stuff.
But then my Co founder left, who
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was, he was Irish and he just,
you know, he, he wanted to go
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off and do other things.
And I ended up starting a new
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company, which was NAFTA AI.
And you know, two months later
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Cha Chi BT came out.
So there was a lot of interest
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in the in the AI space and I've
been building these, these LLM
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work flows for, for quite a
while.
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And so we managed to capitalize
on, on that interest and raise
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6,000,000, which was about about
two years ago.
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And we raised that from from
international investors as well.
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So yeah, what's the best route?
I don't really know.
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I guess like what I would say is
there is too much of A tendency
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to go towards Enterprise Ireland
in the Irish ecosystem.
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And I see really early signs of
that starting to change.
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And I think that's for the best.
And like a community that I'm
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really excited about at the
moment is the baseline
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community.
Oh, I know.
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Baseline, yeah.
Yeah, they're they're awesome.
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I'm like I I might get some of
the details wrong here, but as
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far as I know, it's like one of
the first non government backed
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kind of like startup communities
or organizations, you know, and
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I think that's that's really
important because the government
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have like different incentives
for building companies rice like
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they want to increase employment
and number of jobs, all this
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sort of stuff, right, which
isn't necessarily the same as
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what you want if you're a if
you're a startup vendor.
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So I think it's great to have
government's funding for
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00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:20,080
startups, but I think it's also
great to have, you know,
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independent communities and
funding ecosystems for startups.
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00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:26,640
And that's one that is just
starting to grow and Ireland.
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And if I was starting from
scratch again, I think that
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would probably be the first
place that I went.
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I know Eamon, you know, Eamonn
and Fiona raised their first
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fund of about 5 million and
they're putting first tracks
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into startups.
And yeah, that's a really,
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really good option at the
moment.
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00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:45,720
Yeah, I saw that.
I think based on they're doing
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really good work, I think it's.
Yeah, I think it's, it's a
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really good point you've made
there.
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It, it's like it, it is great,
you know, to have the local
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enterprise offices and
Enterprise Ireland and and
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00:11:57,240 --> 00:11:59,560
everything there.
But like the RE, there are both
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pros but also cons to it.
I think, I know, I know a lot of
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founders that have kind of, they
focus so much on trying to, you
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know, maybe do, they'll do like
New Frontiers the first six
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weeks and then they'll move to
phase two where they spend maybe
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months applying for these
different things or for the HPSC
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or these different grants and
mechanisms.
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00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:23,040
And they kind of stop working on
this start up a little bit
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because they're, they're kind of
waiting for these grants or the,
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the, this finance.
So I think it can kind of slow
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you down, you know, too much if
you kind of pin all your hopes
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00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:34,720
on it and it's not guaranteed.
And, and there's also, you know,
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there are, uh, there are
certainly pros, but the role are
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also cons and it doesn't, it
doesn't suit, I think every
253
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startup or every founder.
Umm, I think the journey you
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described is, uh, is one that
Ireland certainly needs as well
255
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to at least have the option of,
umm, if we, if we look at the
256
00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:55,720
founding team themselves a bit,
Richard, and you know, and this
257
00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:59,320
is kind of a broad question, but
what are the best skills new
258
00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:01,760
founders should possess?
Or what do you think is helping
259
00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:05,840
founders to, umm, separate
themselves or be successful in
260
00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:10,280
this startup right now?
Yeah, I think maybe something
261
00:13:10,560 --> 00:13:14,240
that's changing the most is the
like how dynamic the situation
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is.
And even like when you look at
263
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the the biggest tech companies,
a lot of them are doing these
264
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massive pivots, right and these
massive bets changes of
265
00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:25,320
direction.
You know, some of the examples
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00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:29,080
here are like intercom, for
example, who like, you know,
267
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pivoted head first into AI
agents and are one of the
268
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fastest growing companies.
And then there's other examples
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like air, air table as well.
Like they did a pretty big, big
270
00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:40,560
pivot.
And I don't think I've ever seen
271
00:13:40,560 --> 00:13:45,000
that before in tech as much as
that how quickly all of these
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big companies are moving, right.
And it's no longer this like,
273
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you know, cliche of the, the
slow moving big company and the
274
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quick moving start up that can
move faster.
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00:13:56,160 --> 00:14:00,280
Like it's a the the big
companies are moving much faster
276
00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:02,840
than they did before.
So I think it's it's harder to
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disrupt in a sense.
I think like one of the lessons
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that I learned was like the
importance of pivoting, I guess.
279
00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:15,160
And I guess in general, there's
22 schools of thought with, you
280
00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:16,880
know, the approach that founders
can take.
281
00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:21,800
There is maybe what you could
call the the Peter Thiel zero to
282
00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:25,360
1, which is like, you have this
big vision and you don't need to
283
00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:27,960
talk to customers because like,
they won't tell you the right
284
00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:30,320
things anyway and they won't be
able to talk about their
285
00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:32,720
problem.
So just build your vision,
286
00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:35,800
unlike, you know, just build
that for 10 years and like
287
00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,160
change the world.
That's kind of maybe the more
288
00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:39,520
common view of what founders
should be.
289
00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:42,280
At least that was the one that I
subscribe to most.
290
00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:45,680
Yeah.
And then there's also like the
291
00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:48,960
YC model, which is much more,
you know, sometimes YC companies
292
00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:52,200
pivot like 3 or 4 times like in
the space of whatever the 12
293
00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:56,400
week program.
And I think I started much more
294
00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:59,920
in the first one and I've been
gradually moving much more into
295
00:14:59,920 --> 00:15:03,640
the second one over time.
And you know, like I said, we
296
00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:07,480
fundraise on a vision and it was
great for fundraising and we
297
00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:11,480
predicted a lot of stuff, right?
But after we fundraised, like we
298
00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:15,880
built in, we built in stealth
for a year and weren't, you
299
00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:18,880
know, user focused enough.
We weren't talking to users
300
00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:20,760
enough.
We weren't responding to enough.
301
00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:26,560
And you know, ultimately by the
time we launched, then MCP had
302
00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:29,200
come out by Entropic and we, you
know, needed to scramble to
303
00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:31,200
adopt that because it was
getting traction and we kind of
304
00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:35,640
missed the wave.
We didn't catch PMF based on
305
00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:39,240
that despite predicting a lot of
the the technology, right?
306
00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:42,840
And like my learning as a
founder since then has been how
307
00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:47,880
to pivot, how to like experiment
and iterate and learn from users
308
00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:50,640
and respond to the market more
and more.
309
00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:55,480
And I've even heard people say
in these big tech companies that
310
00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:59,880
there's a few good blog posts
where they talk about PMF used
311
00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:01,240
to be this just milestone that
you reached.
312
00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:04,920
It's like you're pre PMF and
then you're after PMF and before
313
00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:06,680
PMF.
It's like innovation.
314
00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:08,760
And then after PMF, it's all
about optimization.
315
00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:10,840
You can let go of all of your
inventors and just let the
316
00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:12,800
business people in and like
optimize the revenue and all
317
00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:15,160
this sort of stuff.
But I think that's changing even
318
00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:18,080
the in these big tech companies
and people are now talking about
319
00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:21,320
the need to like reinvent
yourself every six months.
320
00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:24,400
I think I listen to it's, it's
one of the people from Lovable,
321
00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:27,080
they said, you know, you have to
reinvent, you have to refine PMF
322
00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:28,520
every six months.
And people are calling it the
323
00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:31,080
PMF treadmill now.
And it's a much more continuous
324
00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:33,720
thing where you need to be
continuously finding PMF,
325
00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:37,680
launching new products.
And it's less about optimization
326
00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,400
and it's more constantly about
innovation now.
327
00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:43,280
So I think like if I could go
back and tell myself one thing,
328
00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:47,440
it would be get more comfortable
in dynamic situations with
329
00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:52,280
iterating and like tuning the
direction and even like pivoting
330
00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:55,000
with like relatively large
changes.
331
00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:57,640
Because I think that's becoming
much more important in this
332
00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:01,320
dynamic world where the tech
changes every week, the market
333
00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:05,200
changes so quickly, the
competitors change so quickly.
334
00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:07,720
I think that's probably one of
the most important skills you
335
00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:09,040
could have as a vendor right
now.
336
00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:13,440
Yeah, that's that's made me it's
given me a lot to think about.
337
00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:16,560
It's, but it's, it's, it's so
true.
338
00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:19,400
Like I think as you like so many
companies do, they just, they
339
00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:22,319
look for the product market fit
that the, the sales start, start
340
00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:24,920
to convert at a better rate to
see a bit more and they kind of
341
00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,000
just stay there.
And they do often stop
342
00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:28,520
innovating.
And that's why there's so many
343
00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:32,080
applications out there that you
just don't see much changes in
344
00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:34,560
their features or their
positioning or, or what they're
345
00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:37,560
doing.
Umm, and they do slowly just get
346
00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:40,440
stale or, you know, things under
the market that are cheaper and
347
00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:42,840
easier and AI is just add into
all of this.
348
00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:48,280
So it's, umm, I, I think keeping
innovation alive is, uh, and
349
00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:50,600
even for, as you mentioned, like
lovable, you know, you
350
00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:52,760
constantly see lovable and these
other umm, kind of more
351
00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:55,840
innovative companies, they're
hiring umm, founders, you know,
352
00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:58,480
they're looking for, for people
that have that found a mindset
353
00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:01,960
who are innovative to keep the
company changing and innovating
354
00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:04,480
all the time.
Umm, so I think that's, uh,
355
00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:07,280
that's going to serve them
really well and intercom as
356
00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:08,440
well.
It's such a good example of it
357
00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:10,440
launching fin.
You know that's that's going to
358
00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:12,680
be a perfect, a perfect example
of the whole thing there.
359
00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:16,560
Yeah, 100%.
I think it's a more difficult
360
00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:20,320
time for optimizers and like you
want to hire more kind of
361
00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:22,320
innovators and inventors.
And I think that happens in
362
00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:25,440
every role in a company.
I even heard in it was another
363
00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:28,960
podcast, but someone was there
like they were working in GTM
364
00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:32,640
and they said that for GTM, it
used to be like 80% of the job
365
00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:37,840
was, was optimizing existing GTM
channels and maybe like 20%, uh,
366
00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,360
innovation in new channels.
And apparently that's completely
367
00:18:40,360 --> 00:18:44,280
switched now where it's like 80%
GTM innovation and like 20%
368
00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:46,400
optimization.
So the people who like optimize
369
00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,520
the funnel are less needed now.
And the people who just come up
370
00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:52,600
with, I don't know, a whole new
product line to onboard users,
371
00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:57,120
umm, or like some, uh, some
other GTM innovation is, is much
372
00:18:57,120 --> 00:18:59,480
more important.
Yeah, Yeah.
373
00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:03,440
I can set up 100%.
And to turn back to the kind of
374
00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:06,760
investor angle a bit, how do you
think companies can attract
375
00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:10,120
investors effectively or how
does it work for Naptha AI?
376
00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:16,600
It's a good question.
I think, yeah, I think like
377
00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:18,720
vision, vision is still really
important.
378
00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:24,160
I think that also it's easier to
build things than ever and you
379
00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:28,200
can you can get much further
along just using like AI tooling
380
00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:32,520
and maybe it's more important
now to have that like prototype
381
00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:35,800
or even, you know, closing that
first design partner.
382
00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:40,120
So I think, you know, whatever
you can build and demonstrate
383
00:19:40,120 --> 00:19:42,200
yourself and show proof that you
know, you're going to be a
384
00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:44,360
founder.
I think that's that's becoming
385
00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:49,560
more important as well.
I think, you know, I think
386
00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:51,880
another big thing that's
happening in the investor
387
00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:55,320
landscape, I guess from an Irish
perspective is that things are
388
00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:59,160
opening more internationally and
it ties in what we talked about
389
00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,840
with with Enterprise Ireland.
But it used to be the case that,
390
00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:07,080
you know, you would raise from
Irish feces, but now I see a lot
391
00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:10,000
more founders, you know, raising
like European wide or even like
392
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:13,040
internationally.
So I think that's that's another
393
00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:15,120
consideration for fundraising as
well.
394
00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:19,360
It's really difficult out there
and especially from a
395
00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:21,840
defensibility standpoint, you
know, like the sorts of
396
00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:25,040
questions you get now or well,
what's going to stop Anthropic
397
00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:27,120
from building this and that's.
Yes, yes.
398
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:31,160
I guess, umm, I, yeah, I think
it's a really challenging
399
00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:33,320
environment to, to fundraise
right now.
400
00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:37,240
I agree.
I think like the good news is
401
00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:39,840
there's there's more options,
you know, and just to look at
402
00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:42,280
Ireland for a moment, like
baseline there.
403
00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:46,760
And but there is also a heck of
a lot more as startups and
404
00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:50,880
founders and people innovation
and the barriers to entry is
405
00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:53,320
just lower now because you have
VI that can help get you
406
00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:55,960
started.
So yeah, it's a, it's a change
407
00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:58,280
in the world.
I think that's another really
408
00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:02,440
good way to, you know, meet
investors, like in baseline, for
409
00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:06,200
example, they often hold, you
know, VC dinners and like VCs
410
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,640
are sometimes working from the
space they come over from the UK
411
00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:12,920
or even further afield.
And so like that sort of
412
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,640
relationship building with
investors and being part of this
413
00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:19,240
community that builds this
network of trust, I think is is
414
00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,480
really, really helpful.
Yeah, 100%.
415
00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:24,040
It's just, it's just
relationships really.
416
00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:27,880
I think the better you can just
create natural relationships
417
00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:30,000
where you actually feel like,
you know, you're both engaging
418
00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:32,440
and care whether the person
thinks and says.
419
00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:35,920
And, uh, you know, I think that
that's, I think that's always a
420
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,640
great way to try to, to get
people to believe in what you're
421
00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,840
doing.
And if, if you finish up, uh,
422
00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:44,400
Richard, if you had one key
piece of advice to share and
423
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:46,000
fund in a startup, what would it
be?
424
00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:54,120
One key piece of advice to share
on funding a start up, I guess
425
00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:57,520
I've covered a lot of the, the
themes that I would say like 1
426
00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:02,320
is luck, at least explore
options other than Enterprise
427
00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:04,600
Ireland, like explore what it
looks like with Enterprise
428
00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:06,560
Ireland, but also know your,
your alternatives.
429
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:11,800
I think don't just look at the
Irish fundraising markets.
430
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:16,280
I think look more broadly across
Europe and the US as well.
431
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:20,040
You know, it's easier than ever
to to raise fundraise
432
00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:23,760
internationally like the world
is really connected.
433
00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:28,120
Investors canmore easily invest
across all markets.
434
00:22:28,120 --> 00:22:32,320
So I think knowing your options
there is really helpful.
435
00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:37,160
And yeah, I think that's that's
probably the main thing that I
436
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,080
would say if they asked if
someone asked me.
437
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,560
Yeah, I think, I think it's, I
think it's both really good
438
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:47,320
advice, but also important to
remember, I think I think we can
439
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:49,840
always get kind of a, well, a
bit guilty of just looking at
440
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:51,800
what's around us rather than
trying to look a bit further
441
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,720
afield and having a bit of
imagination when it was
442
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:56,640
possible.
And Richard, thanks so much for
443
00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:58,640
calling the podcast.
That was a really, really good
444
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,080
conversation and you've given me
a lot to think about.
445
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:04,160
Yeah, you're very welcome.
I think it's a really exciting
446
00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:08,760
time to be in startups.
And, you know, I think going
447
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:12,000
forwards, Ireland is going to
build this bigger startup
448
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,600
ecosystem, especially, you know,
maybe the the big tech side of
449
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:19,000
things is going to be less
dependable.
450
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:20,960
So I think that's a really
exciting time for startups and
451
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,120
the startup community in Ireland
is just getting better and
452
00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:25,920
better.
So yeah, it's challenging, but
453
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:28,560
also a lot of fun and it's it's
growing.
454
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:31,760
Yeah, I agree.
Richard, thanks so much.
455
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:33,320
OK.
Thank you.
456
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:39,480
Hi, thanks for listening to this
weeks episode of the Founders
457
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:41,960
and Funding podcast.
If you'd like to be a guest to
458
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,040
have a guest suggestion, please
get in touch.
459
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:45,080
Thank you.
00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:03,480
Hi, welcome to the Founders and
Funding podcast.
2
00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:06,080
I'm your host, Philip Smith.
On the podcast, I'll be
3
00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:09,840
interviewing founders,
investors, startup advisors on
4
00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:13,520
how to fund the journey of your
startup and some tips and advice
5
00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:17,120
they have for you along the way.
This podcast is sponsored by
6
00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:20,600
Perfect Technologies and Laden.
Enjoy the episode.
7
00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:26,040
Richard, welcome to the Founders
and Funding podcast.
8
00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:28,240
Thank you so much.
It's great to be here.
9
00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:30,880
Well, it's, it's my pleasure to
have you on.
10
00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:33,760
To be honest, uh, Richard, to
shut us off, just tell me about
11
00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:38,040
your company and your role.
Yes, I'm, I'm Richard, I'm the
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CEO and founder of Napa AI.
We are an AI company and we
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fundraised, uh, almost two years
ago now on this vision that we
14
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had for the Internet of agents.
And bear in mind, this was about
15
00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:54,960
a year before MCP was released
by Anthropic.
16
00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:57,640
So we, we had something similar
to them, which was like an MCP
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platform.
We thought, you know, there were
18
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going to be tons of these agents
running on different servers, on
19
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different devices or cooperating
across the network and as part
20
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of organizations.
That's really interesting.
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That's that that actually seems
it's not, you know, in terms of
22
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actual life, it's not a very
long time ago, but it seems like
23
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a kind of an eternity, a goal
from this world of AI.
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You know, thinking of everything
that happened in the last two
25
00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:26,840
years between charge of G and
Claude and all the developments
26
00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:30,400
and releases and changes and new
companies, it's, it seems like
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00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:33,560
such a long time ago.
Yeah, yeah, it really does.
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Like everything changes so fast.
It's been, it's been a whirlwind
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00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:39,320
of two years and I don't think
it's slowing down anytime soon.
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00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:43,520
Yeah, I both love and hate it's,
it's really good to use the
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tools, but it's also very
frustrating trying to keep up
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00:01:45,960 --> 00:01:48,880
with, you know, every time I
kind of master 1 to get used to
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00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:50,760
it, then something else releases
and that's better and you have
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00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:53,400
to change over here.
But you know, that's part of the
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journey, I suppose.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
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And it's a lot of fun.
It's exhausting at the same
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00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:00,160
time.
Yeah, I can imagine.
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And and what does an average day
look like right now?
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00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:08,280
So at the moment we're, we're
just starting to move into sales
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00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:11,360
mode.
I guess previously we were doing
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00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:14,040
a lot of problem discovery,
which looked more like, you
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know, user research, a lot of
user interviews, that sort of
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thing.
Because we hadn't, you know,
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found a problem that was, you
know, a priority for people to
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solve.
And then after that, once we'd
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found a problem, we started
doing product discovery to, to
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00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:30,520
figure out solutions and, you
know, doing tests with users and
48
00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:34,040
that sort of thing.
And neither the problem nor the
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00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:35,600
solution or the, the bottleneck
anymore.
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00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:37,960
And so about 3 weeks ago, we
actually just started running
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sales prints week by week where,
you know, we change our
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hypothesis somewhat.
The ICP is like the person that,
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you know, we want to sell to
what the, what the price is,
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what we're actually selling
them, what the value we're
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providing is.
And we try to talk to or make
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you know about 10 different
pictures each week and then
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refine the hypothesis until we
start closing deals.
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That's really interesting.
I think I'm always, whenever
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00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:05,000
you're a founder talking about,
you know, they're focusing on
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00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:08,400
sales, I always think that's a
company that's moving in the
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right direction, but also
innovating.
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Because I think if you're
focusing on sales, you're,
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you're trying to make the
product better for the sales,
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you're trying to focus on growth
and innovation.
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So I, I think it's always the,
it's refreshing.
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I think the probably the best
area to focus on.
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Yeah.
I think, like, I don't know if
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this is useful, but one of the
previous mistakes that I made
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00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:32,240
was trying to run sales with
something that wasn't really
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solving a top priority problem.
So we've always broadly been
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00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:38,760
building on top of this like
similar infrastructure, which is
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00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:41,040
like the Internet of agents,
agents running everywhere, MCP
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00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:42,200
platforms, all that sort of
stuff.
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Yeah.
But we've been trying to figure
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out like use cases for that for
the last year or so.
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00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:51,160
And one of the previous areas
that we wanted to apply this to
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00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:53,200
was for like developer on
boarding.
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00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:57,360
We're trying to sell to
developer tool companies and use
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our technology like agents to
help users on board and, you
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00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:02,960
know, get customer support and
all that sort of stuff.
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00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:07,040
And actually like the mistake
that we made there was we, we
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kind of like started off with a
solution and then tried to work
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00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:11,880
backwards to a problem.
And then we spent, you know,
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00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:14,960
months and months trying to sell
this and close design partners
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00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:17,480
and we really just couldn't get
across the line.
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00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:21,640
And my, my conclusion about what
happened was that we didn't do
87
00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:24,000
the problem discovery and the
product discovery well enough
88
00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:26,360
before and we moved into sales
mode too soon.
89
00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:28,800
And so that's actually a big
change of what we did this time.
90
00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:32,240
We, we did extensive problem
discovery, solution discovery.
91
00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:35,600
And now just coming into that
sales cycle, it's already clear
92
00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:38,000
that there's a lot less friction
than than what we had before.
93
00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:40,120
You know, we're going through
vendor approval with some
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00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:41,120
companies and that sort of
thing.
95
00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:45,480
So yeah, I think doing sales at
the right time with the right
96
00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:49,760
problem and the right products
is, uh, is the hard part almost.
97
00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:54,160
Yeah, I think, and this probably
sounds strange to some people,
98
00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:56,600
but I think when you're actually
just busy and the calls are
99
00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:58,320
being booked and you're doing
the sales calls and you're
100
00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:00,400
closing deals and you're like,
and, and maybe they're 12 hour
101
00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:02,040
days, maybe they're long tough
days.
102
00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:06,480
But it it, to me anyway, my
experience, it feels lighter
103
00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:08,880
than, you know, kind of when
you're trying to find the
104
00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:10,520
product market fate, you're
trying to find the problem,
105
00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:12,680
you're trying to find the
solution that for me, my own
106
00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:15,720
experience caused a lot of
sleepless nights because, you
107
00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:18,640
know, there's an assurance at
least when you're busy, that
108
00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:20,400
you're moving in the right
direction and it's clicking
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00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:24,040
where, you know, when it's not
quite clicking, there's a stress
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00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:27,120
of how can we make this work?
So yeah, I've been there.
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00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:30,640
Yeah, yeah, I'm still in that
kind of complex maze trying to
112
00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:33,160
navigate us.
Maybe there's a little bit more
113
00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:36,080
life that I can see than before.
I think we're making progress,
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00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:37,680
but I I know exactly what you
mean.
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00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:41,440
Well, I think I'll, I think to
be fair with an update, I think
116
00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:44,560
it already looks so impressive.
And you know, I think that's
117
00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:48,840
the, that's the great thing.
I think it's, it's kind of the,
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00:05:48,840 --> 00:05:51,440
for me, the kind of the pro and
the con of the, of, of AI that
119
00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:54,120
you can, you can, you can create
something that's so incredible
120
00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:55,520
and impressive.
But as you said, it is, it's
121
00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:59,520
trying to find the big enough
problem for that that people
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00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:02,800
actually want to stick around,
use it over and over again and
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00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:04,880
spend the time learning how to
use it to give them feedback to
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improve it.
And I think AI is kind of, it's
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both helped and hindered that
because AI can do so much.
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00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:12,240
But then it's like what we
actually get the AI to do, you
127
00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:14,600
know?
Yeah, for sure.
128
00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:19,000
Umm, the, the, it's like it's,
it's so competitive, the space
129
00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:21,880
at the moment.
I, I mean, there's a lot of
130
00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:25,560
different ways that you can
approach, you know, figuring out
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00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:27,680
what to build.
I guess I'm like, one thing that
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00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:30,960
you see a lot happening is
people will focus on a
133
00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:33,200
particular domain, whether
that's like construction or even
134
00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:36,640
like, you know, plumbing or
Craftsman or, or something like
135
00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:38,600
that.
And then start building an AI
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00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:41,520
solution to help these people in
their like day-to-day jobs.
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00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:44,240
And that's actually like
something that is, is quite
138
00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:46,360
successful.
I guess like one thing that we
139
00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:49,760
learned from, you know, being
more towards like the
140
00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:52,760
infrastructure side and dev tool
side is that, you know, when
141
00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:55,280
you're building something more
horizontal than vertical, it's
142
00:06:55,280 --> 00:06:58,560
like super competitive.
And I guess that's a learning
143
00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:02,600
that we've we've made over time
and like everything just moves
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00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:04,080
crazy fast, like we were saying
as well.
145
00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:06,400
And also, are you competing with
Anthropic and open AI?
146
00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:10,760
And so a lot of figuring a lot
of this stuff out is a is a huge
147
00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:11,960
part of the battle in my
opinion.
148
00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:14,640
Yeah, I know.
I completely agree.
149
00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:18,120
Like I, and I don't think that's
been talked about enough, you
150
00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:21,680
know, really about AI because
it's for startups.
151
00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:26,680
It's just, there's just, there's
such an endless, umm, change in
152
00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:29,000
AI, but also in the kind of
different niches that have been
153
00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:31,160
created and, and the kind of
what those companies could look
154
00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:33,080
like.
And they try not to compete with
155
00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:37,240
the likes of, you know, Tropic
or open AI, but also trying to
156
00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:43,200
create your own, uh, space and
niche that that works to, to, to
157
00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:45,800
look more closely at the
company's, uh, journey.
158
00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:48,160
How has it funded it?
It's a journey to date.
159
00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:54,200
Yeah, so my life journey in, in
fundraising has been relatively
160
00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:56,920
long. 1, I actually, when I came
out of college, when I finished
161
00:07:56,920 --> 00:07:59,800
my PhD in 2017, I started
looking for, for start up
162
00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:02,720
funding straight away.
And the first thing I knew was
163
00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:06,920
I, I just come from academia.
So I actually tried to use that
164
00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:08,600
Ave. that I, that I knew
initially.
165
00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:13,080
And so went more after like
commercialization funding, which
166
00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:16,240
you know, means that you need to
move into the university to, you
167
00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:18,520
know, research and develop the,
the technology there.
168
00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:21,000
Yeah, that was just such a slow
process.
169
00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:23,760
It took, we were 18 months in
and we got rejected for like the
170
00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,280
third or fourth time by the
review panel, all of whom have
171
00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:30,360
to say yes.
And it was at that point I
172
00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:32,720
thought there just has to be a
faster way than this.
173
00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:35,159
That funding actually came in
after two years.
174
00:08:35,159 --> 00:08:40,200
We, we were trying to bring in
300K, but by that time I was
175
00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:41,640
sort of handing off to someone
else.
176
00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:45,200
And that, that startups actually
still going, they're still,
177
00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:47,440
they're in the process of
spinning out from the, the
178
00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:50,240
university and fundraising.
Last time I heard they're called
179
00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:53,880
Kinema.
So that was kind of my first, my
180
00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:55,800
first lesson in fundraising, I
guess you could say.
181
00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:59,880
And then I started a new startup
that was called Algevera.
182
00:08:59,960 --> 00:09:03,480
And we were trying to bootstrap
the idea there was we would
183
00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:06,960
spend about half of our time
bootstrapping, you know, doing
184
00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:10,360
consultancy for different
organizations and the other half
185
00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:13,160
trying to, to fundraise.
And the sort of consultancy work
186
00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:18,160
that we did was building out AI
workflows, a lot of like LLM
187
00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:20,240
workflows and that sort of stuff
like Lang chain had just come
188
00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:21,840
out.
We were building a lot of these
189
00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:23,640
solutions for, for different
companies.
190
00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:26,560
And so we managed to grow the
team to about 6 people fully
191
00:09:26,560 --> 00:09:31,160
bootstrapped.
But I think the, it was, it was
192
00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:32,960
a distraction in terms of
fundraising and we never
193
00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:36,960
actually managed to, to
fundraise based on that.
194
00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:39,480
We had maybe like 2-2 different
attempts.
195
00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:42,360
I was also like quite an
experienced at fundraising at
196
00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:44,720
that time and made a lot of
mistakes, like, you know, kept
197
00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:48,080
the round up for six months and
didn't make enough of a campaign
198
00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:53,480
and all this sort of stuff.
But then my Co founder left, who
199
00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:58,560
was, he was Irish and he just,
you know, he, he wanted to go
200
00:09:58,560 --> 00:10:01,440
off and do other things.
And I ended up starting a new
201
00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:05,360
company, which was NAFTA AI.
And you know, two months later
202
00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:07,800
Cha Chi BT came out.
So there was a lot of interest
203
00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:12,520
in the in the AI space and I've
been building these, these LLM
204
00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:14,040
work flows for, for quite a
while.
205
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And so we managed to capitalize
on, on that interest and raise
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6,000,000, which was about about
two years ago.
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And we raised that from from
international investors as well.
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So yeah, what's the best route?
I don't really know.
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00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:32,440
I guess like what I would say is
there is too much of A tendency
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to go towards Enterprise Ireland
in the Irish ecosystem.
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And I see really early signs of
that starting to change.
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And I think that's for the best.
And like a community that I'm
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really excited about at the
moment is the baseline
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community.
Oh, I know.
215
00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:49,280
Baseline, yeah.
Yeah, they're they're awesome.
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I'm like I I might get some of
the details wrong here, but as
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00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:55,800
far as I know, it's like one of
the first non government backed
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00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:59,480
kind of like startup communities
or organizations, you know, and
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I think that's that's really
important because the government
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have like different incentives
for building companies rice like
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they want to increase employment
and number of jobs, all this
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sort of stuff, right, which
isn't necessarily the same as
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what you want if you're a if
you're a startup vendor.
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So I think it's great to have
government's funding for
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00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:20,080
startups, but I think it's also
great to have, you know,
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independent communities and
funding ecosystems for startups.
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And that's one that is just
starting to grow and Ireland.
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And if I was starting from
scratch again, I think that
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would probably be the first
place that I went.
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I know Eamon, you know, Eamonn
and Fiona raised their first
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fund of about 5 million and
they're putting first tracks
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into startups.
And yeah, that's a really,
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really good option at the
moment.
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Yeah, I saw that.
I think based on they're doing
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really good work, I think it's.
Yeah, I think it's, it's a
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really good point you've made
there.
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It, it's like it, it is great,
you know, to have the local
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enterprise offices and
Enterprise Ireland and and
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everything there.
But like the RE, there are both
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pros but also cons to it.
I think, I know, I know a lot of
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00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:08,040
founders that have kind of, they
focus so much on trying to, you
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00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:11,840
know, maybe do, they'll do like
New Frontiers the first six
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00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:15,000
weeks and then they'll move to
phase two where they spend maybe
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months applying for these
different things or for the HPSC
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or these different grants and
mechanisms.
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00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:23,040
And they kind of stop working on
this start up a little bit
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00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:26,240
because they're, they're kind of
waiting for these grants or the,
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00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:28,680
the, this finance.
So I think it can kind of slow
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you down, you know, too much if
you kind of pin all your hopes
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on it and it's not guaranteed.
And, and there's also, you know,
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there are, uh, there are
certainly pros, but the role are
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also cons and it doesn't, it
doesn't suit, I think every
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startup or every founder.
Umm, I think the journey you
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described is, uh, is one that
Ireland certainly needs as well
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to at least have the option of,
umm, if we, if we look at the
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00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:55,720
founding team themselves a bit,
Richard, and you know, and this
257
00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:59,320
is kind of a broad question, but
what are the best skills new
258
00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:01,760
founders should possess?
Or what do you think is helping
259
00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:05,840
founders to, umm, separate
themselves or be successful in
260
00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:10,280
this startup right now?
Yeah, I think maybe something
261
00:13:10,560 --> 00:13:14,240
that's changing the most is the
like how dynamic the situation
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is.
And even like when you look at
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the the biggest tech companies,
a lot of them are doing these
264
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massive pivots, right and these
massive bets changes of
265
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direction.
You know, some of the examples
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00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:29,080
here are like intercom, for
example, who like, you know,
267
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pivoted head first into AI
agents and are one of the
268
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fastest growing companies.
And then there's other examples
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00:13:35,560 --> 00:13:38,480
like air, air table as well.
Like they did a pretty big, big
270
00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:40,560
pivot.
And I don't think I've ever seen
271
00:13:40,560 --> 00:13:45,000
that before in tech as much as
that how quickly all of these
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big companies are moving, right.
And it's no longer this like,
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you know, cliche of the, the
slow moving big company and the
274
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quick moving start up that can
move faster.
275
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Like it's a the the big
companies are moving much faster
276
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than they did before.
So I think it's it's harder to
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disrupt in a sense.
I think like one of the lessons
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that I learned was like the
importance of pivoting, I guess.
279
00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:15,160
And I guess in general, there's
22 schools of thought with, you
280
00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:16,880
know, the approach that founders
can take.
281
00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:21,800
There is maybe what you could
call the the Peter Thiel zero to
282
00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:25,360
1, which is like, you have this
big vision and you don't need to
283
00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:27,960
talk to customers because like,
they won't tell you the right
284
00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:30,320
things anyway and they won't be
able to talk about their
285
00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:32,720
problem.
So just build your vision,
286
00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:35,800
unlike, you know, just build
that for 10 years and like
287
00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,160
change the world.
That's kind of maybe the more
288
00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:39,520
common view of what founders
should be.
289
00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:42,280
At least that was the one that I
subscribe to most.
290
00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:45,680
Yeah.
And then there's also like the
291
00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:48,960
YC model, which is much more,
you know, sometimes YC companies
292
00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:52,200
pivot like 3 or 4 times like in
the space of whatever the 12
293
00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:56,400
week program.
And I think I started much more
294
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in the first one and I've been
gradually moving much more into
295
00:14:59,920 --> 00:15:03,640
the second one over time.
And you know, like I said, we
296
00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:07,480
fundraise on a vision and it was
great for fundraising and we
297
00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:11,480
predicted a lot of stuff, right?
But after we fundraised, like we
298
00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:15,880
built in, we built in stealth
for a year and weren't, you
299
00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:18,880
know, user focused enough.
We weren't talking to users
300
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enough.
We weren't responding to enough.
301
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And you know, ultimately by the
time we launched, then MCP had
302
00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:29,200
come out by Entropic and we, you
know, needed to scramble to
303
00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:31,200
adopt that because it was
getting traction and we kind of
304
00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:35,640
missed the wave.
We didn't catch PMF based on
305
00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:39,240
that despite predicting a lot of
the the technology, right?
306
00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:42,840
And like my learning as a
founder since then has been how
307
00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:47,880
to pivot, how to like experiment
and iterate and learn from users
308
00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:50,640
and respond to the market more
and more.
309
00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:55,480
And I've even heard people say
in these big tech companies that
310
00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:59,880
there's a few good blog posts
where they talk about PMF used
311
00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:01,240
to be this just milestone that
you reached.
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00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:04,920
It's like you're pre PMF and
then you're after PMF and before
313
00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:06,680
PMF.
It's like innovation.
314
00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:08,760
And then after PMF, it's all
about optimization.
315
00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:10,840
You can let go of all of your
inventors and just let the
316
00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:12,800
business people in and like
optimize the revenue and all
317
00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:15,160
this sort of stuff.
But I think that's changing even
318
00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:18,080
the in these big tech companies
and people are now talking about
319
00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:21,320
the need to like reinvent
yourself every six months.
320
00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:24,400
I think I listen to it's, it's
one of the people from Lovable,
321
00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:27,080
they said, you know, you have to
reinvent, you have to refine PMF
322
00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:28,520
every six months.
And people are calling it the
323
00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:31,080
PMF treadmill now.
And it's a much more continuous
324
00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:33,720
thing where you need to be
continuously finding PMF,
325
00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:37,680
launching new products.
And it's less about optimization
326
00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,400
and it's more constantly about
innovation now.
327
00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:43,280
So I think like if I could go
back and tell myself one thing,
328
00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:47,440
it would be get more comfortable
in dynamic situations with
329
00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:52,280
iterating and like tuning the
direction and even like pivoting
330
00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:55,000
with like relatively large
changes.
331
00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:57,640
Because I think that's becoming
much more important in this
332
00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:01,320
dynamic world where the tech
changes every week, the market
333
00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:05,200
changes so quickly, the
competitors change so quickly.
334
00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:07,720
I think that's probably one of
the most important skills you
335
00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:09,040
could have as a vendor right
now.
336
00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:13,440
Yeah, that's that's made me it's
given me a lot to think about.
337
00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:16,560
It's, but it's, it's, it's so
true.
338
00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:19,400
Like I think as you like so many
companies do, they just, they
339
00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:22,319
look for the product market fit
that the, the sales start, start
340
00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:24,920
to convert at a better rate to
see a bit more and they kind of
341
00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,000
just stay there.
And they do often stop
342
00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:28,520
innovating.
And that's why there's so many
343
00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:32,080
applications out there that you
just don't see much changes in
344
00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:34,560
their features or their
positioning or, or what they're
345
00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:37,560
doing.
Umm, and they do slowly just get
346
00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:40,440
stale or, you know, things under
the market that are cheaper and
347
00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:42,840
easier and AI is just add into
all of this.
348
00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:48,280
So it's, umm, I, I think keeping
innovation alive is, uh, and
349
00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:50,600
even for, as you mentioned, like
lovable, you know, you
350
00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:52,760
constantly see lovable and these
other umm, kind of more
351
00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:55,840
innovative companies, they're
hiring umm, founders, you know,
352
00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:58,480
they're looking for, for people
that have that found a mindset
353
00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:01,960
who are innovative to keep the
company changing and innovating
354
00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:04,480
all the time.
Umm, so I think that's, uh,
355
00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:07,280
that's going to serve them
really well and intercom as
356
00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:08,440
well.
It's such a good example of it
357
00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:10,440
launching fin.
You know that's that's going to
358
00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:12,680
be a perfect, a perfect example
of the whole thing there.
359
00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:16,560
Yeah, 100%.
I think it's a more difficult
360
00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:20,320
time for optimizers and like you
want to hire more kind of
361
00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:22,320
innovators and inventors.
And I think that happens in
362
00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:25,440
every role in a company.
I even heard in it was another
363
00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:28,960
podcast, but someone was there
like they were working in GTM
364
00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:32,640
and they said that for GTM, it
used to be like 80% of the job
365
00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:37,840
was, was optimizing existing GTM
channels and maybe like 20%, uh,
366
00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,360
innovation in new channels.
And apparently that's completely
367
00:18:40,360 --> 00:18:44,280
switched now where it's like 80%
GTM innovation and like 20%
368
00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:46,400
optimization.
So the people who like optimize
369
00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,520
the funnel are less needed now.
And the people who just come up
370
00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:52,600
with, I don't know, a whole new
product line to onboard users,
371
00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:57,120
umm, or like some, uh, some
other GTM innovation is, is much
372
00:18:57,120 --> 00:18:59,480
more important.
Yeah, Yeah.
373
00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:03,440
I can set up 100%.
And to turn back to the kind of
374
00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:06,760
investor angle a bit, how do you
think companies can attract
375
00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:10,120
investors effectively or how
does it work for Naptha AI?
376
00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:16,600
It's a good question.
I think, yeah, I think like
377
00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:18,720
vision, vision is still really
important.
378
00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:24,160
I think that also it's easier to
build things than ever and you
379
00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:28,200
can you can get much further
along just using like AI tooling
380
00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:32,520
and maybe it's more important
now to have that like prototype
381
00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:35,800
or even, you know, closing that
first design partner.
382
00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:40,120
So I think, you know, whatever
you can build and demonstrate
383
00:19:40,120 --> 00:19:42,200
yourself and show proof that you
know, you're going to be a
384
00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:44,360
founder.
I think that's that's becoming
385
00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:49,560
more important as well.
I think, you know, I think
386
00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:51,880
another big thing that's
happening in the investor
387
00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:55,320
landscape, I guess from an Irish
perspective is that things are
388
00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:59,160
opening more internationally and
it ties in what we talked about
389
00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,840
with with Enterprise Ireland.
But it used to be the case that,
390
00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:07,080
you know, you would raise from
Irish feces, but now I see a lot
391
00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:10,000
more founders, you know, raising
like European wide or even like
392
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:13,040
internationally.
So I think that's that's another
393
00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:15,120
consideration for fundraising as
well.
394
00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:19,360
It's really difficult out there
and especially from a
395
00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:21,840
defensibility standpoint, you
know, like the sorts of
396
00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:25,040
questions you get now or well,
what's going to stop Anthropic
397
00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:27,120
from building this and that's.
Yes, yes.
398
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:31,160
I guess, umm, I, yeah, I think
it's a really challenging
399
00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:33,320
environment to, to fundraise
right now.
400
00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:37,240
I agree.
I think like the good news is
401
00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:39,840
there's there's more options,
you know, and just to look at
402
00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:42,280
Ireland for a moment, like
baseline there.
403
00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:46,760
And but there is also a heck of
a lot more as startups and
404
00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:50,880
founders and people innovation
and the barriers to entry is
405
00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:53,320
just lower now because you have
VI that can help get you
406
00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:55,960
started.
So yeah, it's a, it's a change
407
00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:58,280
in the world.
I think that's another really
408
00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:02,440
good way to, you know, meet
investors, like in baseline, for
409
00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:06,200
example, they often hold, you
know, VC dinners and like VCs
410
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,640
are sometimes working from the
space they come over from the UK
411
00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:12,920
or even further afield.
And so like that sort of
412
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,640
relationship building with
investors and being part of this
413
00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:19,240
community that builds this
network of trust, I think is is
414
00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,480
really, really helpful.
Yeah, 100%.
415
00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:24,040
It's just, it's just
relationships really.
416
00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:27,880
I think the better you can just
create natural relationships
417
00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:30,000
where you actually feel like,
you know, you're both engaging
418
00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:32,440
and care whether the person
thinks and says.
419
00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:35,920
And, uh, you know, I think that
that's, I think that's always a
420
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,640
great way to try to, to get
people to believe in what you're
421
00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,840
doing.
And if, if you finish up, uh,
422
00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:44,400
Richard, if you had one key
piece of advice to share and
423
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:46,000
fund in a startup, what would it
be?
424
00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:54,120
One key piece of advice to share
on funding a start up, I guess
425
00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:57,520
I've covered a lot of the, the
themes that I would say like 1
426
00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:02,320
is luck, at least explore
options other than Enterprise
427
00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:04,600
Ireland, like explore what it
looks like with Enterprise
428
00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:06,560
Ireland, but also know your,
your alternatives.
429
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:11,800
I think don't just look at the
Irish fundraising markets.
430
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:16,280
I think look more broadly across
Europe and the US as well.
431
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:20,040
You know, it's easier than ever
to to raise fundraise
432
00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:23,760
internationally like the world
is really connected.
433
00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:28,120
Investors canmore easily invest
across all markets.
434
00:22:28,120 --> 00:22:32,320
So I think knowing your options
there is really helpful.
435
00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:37,160
And yeah, I think that's that's
probably the main thing that I
436
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,080
would say if they asked if
someone asked me.
437
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,560
Yeah, I think, I think it's, I
think it's both really good
438
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:47,320
advice, but also important to
remember, I think I think we can
439
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:49,840
always get kind of a, well, a
bit guilty of just looking at
440
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:51,800
what's around us rather than
trying to look a bit further
441
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,720
afield and having a bit of
imagination when it was
442
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:56,640
possible.
And Richard, thanks so much for
443
00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:58,640
calling the podcast.
That was a really, really good
444
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,080
conversation and you've given me
a lot to think about.
445
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:04,160
Yeah, you're very welcome.
I think it's a really exciting
446
00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:08,760
time to be in startups.
And, you know, I think going
447
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:12,000
forwards, Ireland is going to
build this bigger startup
448
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,600
ecosystem, especially, you know,
maybe the the big tech side of
449
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:19,000
things is going to be less
dependable.
450
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:20,960
So I think that's a really
exciting time for startups and
451
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,120
the startup community in Ireland
is just getting better and
452
00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:25,920
better.
So yeah, it's challenging, but
453
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:28,560
also a lot of fun and it's it's
growing.
454
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:31,760
Yeah, I agree.
Richard, thanks so much.
455
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:33,320
OK.
Thank you.
456
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:39,480
Hi, thanks for listening to this
weeks episode of the Founders
457
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:41,960
and Funding podcast.
If you'd like to be a guest to
458
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,040
have a guest suggestion, please
get in touch.
459
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:45,080
Thank you.